tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-53345556916250521922024-03-12T16:45:30.953-07:00InterpreterPeerReviewsThe Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture (aka, https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/journal/, fka mormoninterpreter.com) is an online/print journal that publishes purportedly peer-reviewed articles. Most of the articles are first-rate, but in some cases, the citation cartel who conducts the peer reviews let some articles slip through with problems. Here I offer my peer reviews of these articles.jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-11145105421019077062023-10-10T11:10:00.001-07:002023-10-10T11:10:12.282-07:00The good stuff 1<p>I've often said that the <i>Interpreter </i>publishes some good material. People ask me for examples. Here's one:</p><p><a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/moving-beyond-the-historicity-question-or-a-manifesto-for-future-book-of-mormon-research/#more-64352" target="_blank">https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/moving-beyond-the-historicity-question-or-a-manifesto-for-future-book-of-mormon-research/#more-64352</a></p><p>This is a thoughtful review of the book titled <i>Book of Mormon Studies: An Introduction and Guide</i>. The review does an excellent job summarizing and explaining this important and useful book.</p><p>Predictably, the review is a little defensive about the Interpreter. </p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">There are thirty references from the <i>Journal of Book of Mormon Studies</i> in the [Page 307]appendix, but only a single, must-read reference from the <i>Interpreter</i>... Finally, the description of <i>Interpreter </i>in Book of Mormon Studies is far from kind.</span></p></blockquote><p>Toward the end, the article ironically describes the "Gatekeeper problem."</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><h2 style="background-color: white; border: 0px; clear: both; font-family: minion-pro-n4, minion-pro-1, minion-pro-2, "Palatino Linotype", "Book Antiqua", Palatino, serif; margin: 1.5em 0px 0.8125em; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #2b00fe; font-size: small;">The Gatekeeper Problem</span></h2><p style="background-color: white; border: 0px; font-family: minion-pro-n4, minion-pro-1, minion-pro-2, "Palatino Linotype", "Book Antiqua", Palatino, serif; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Another problem with the book and its contents is that it feels somewhat inbred. I greatly admire much of the work done by the authors, but I also admire work done by other scholars not affiliated with the organizations in which the authors exercise gatekeeping power. The authors have been remarkably productive researchers and have made valuable contributions to our understanding of the Book of Mormon, but so have others unaffiliated with the Maxwell Institute, the <em style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Journal of Book of Mormon Studies</em>, the Latter-day Saint Theology Seminar, and the Academy of Book of Mormon Studies. The authors of <em style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Book of Mormon Studies</em> complain<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/moving-beyond-the-historicity-question-or-a-manifesto-for-future-book-of-mormon-research/#footnote42sym" id="footnote42anc" style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; vertical-align: baseline;" title="42. “Still more worrisome is a further temptation: to allow defense of the Book of Mormon to become a kind of gatekeeping among the saints. That is, far too often accusations are made by one believer about another. Whether they’re written and published or whether they’re just whispered into individual ears in quieter settings, such accusations should have no place in the field of Book of Mormon studies” (p. 75)."><span style="border: 0px; bottom: 1.5ex; font-weight: inherit; height: 0px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 2px; position: relative; vertical-align: baseline;">42</span></a> about too restrictive gatekeeping and a lack of openness to alternative perspectives in the FARMS era. Whether those concerns have merit, the authors themselves generally include in their list of contemporary scholarship work primarily done by the authors and others affiliated with the organizations in which they serve as principals. The value of their survey would be greater if their canon of worthwhile research were more open and broader.</span></p></blockquote><p>The Gatekeeper problem is the primary deficiency in the <i>Interpreter </i>(apart from the arrogant name of the journal). The Editorial Board of the <i>Interpreter </i>would be well served to reconsider their gatekeeping approach.</p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-85475053426034122442023-10-02T08:23:00.002-07:002023-10-02T08:23:58.482-07:00they want papers that support certain preapproved narratives.<p>Article in the Wall St. Journal helps explain the <i>Interpreter's</i> editorial bias against alternative faithful narratives.</p><div class="crawler css-bsrkcm-Box e1vnmyci0" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: Retina, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; margin-bottom: var(--spacing-spacer-8);"><h1 class="css-1hch5ce-StyledHeadline e1ipbpvp0" style="--headline-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --headline-link-hover-color: var(--color-blue); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--headline-font-color); font-family: var(--typography-headline-opinion-xxl-font-family); font-size: var(--typography-headline-opinion-xxl-font-size); font-style: var(--font-style-italic); font-weight: var(--typography-headline-opinion-xxl-font-weight); line-height: var(--typography-headline-opinion-xxl-line-height); margin: 0px;">How ‘Preapproved Narratives’ Corrupt Science</h1></div><h2 class="css-jiugt2-Dek-Dek e1jnru6p0" style="--headline-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --headline-link-hover-color: var(--color-blue); background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--secondary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: Retina, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: var(--typography-subheading-standard-m-font-size); font-weight: var(--typography-subheading-standard-m-font-weight); line-height: var(--typography-subheading-standard-m-line-height); margin: 0px;">Especially in climate and Covid research, abuse of peer review and self-censorship abound.</h2><div><p class="epvx9352 css-1s90smj-AuthorPlaintext" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #222222; display: inline; font-family: "Retina Narrow", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin: 0px;">By </p><a aria-label="Author page for Allysia Finley" class="epvx9353 css-14ntjnq-AuthorLink" data-testid="author-link" href="https://www.wsj.com/news/author/allysia-finley" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #816d4d; display: inline-block; font-family: "Retina Narrow", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; text-decoration-line: none; transition-duration: 200ms, 200ms; transition-property: color, fill; transition-timing-function: cubic-bezier(0, 0, 0.5, 1), cubic-bezier(0, 0, 0.5, 1);" target="_blank"><span class="css-17x5lw" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 22.8125px; justify-content: flex-start;"><span class="css-1wc2zh5" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin: 0px;">Allysia Finley</span></span></a></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #6f6f6f; font-family: "Retina Narrow", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Oct. 1, 2023</span></div><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-preapproved-narratives-corrupt-science-false-studies-covid-climate-change-5bee0844?st=bznj8isxnar1tr3&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink" target="_blank">https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-preapproved-narratives-corrupt-science-false-studies-covid-climate-change-5bee0844?st=bznj8isxnar1tr3&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink</a></div><div><br /></div><div>Excerpts (emphasis added):</div><div><br /></div><div><div>Scientists were aghast last month when Patrick Brown, climate director at the Breakthrough Institute in Berkeley, Calif., acknowledged that <b>he’d censored one of his studies to increase his odds of getting published.</b> Credit to him for being honest about something his peers also do but are loath to admit.</div><div><br /></div><div>In an essay for the Free Press, Mr. Brown explained that he omitted “key aspects other than climate change” from a paper on California wildfires because such details would “dilute the story that prestigious journals like Nature and its rival, Science, want to tell.” <b>Editors of scientific journals, he wrote, “have made it abundantly clear, both by what they publish and what they reject, that they want climate papers that support certain preapproved narratives.”</b></div><div><br /></div><div>Nature’s editor, Magdalena Skipper, denied that the journal has “a preferred narrative.” No doubt the editors at the New York Times and ProPublica would say the same of their own pages.</div><div><br /></div><div>[As would editors at the <i>Interpreter</i>.]</div><div><br /></div><div>Mr. Brown’s criticisms aren’t new. In 2005 Stanford epidemiologist John Ioannidis wrote an essay titled “Why Most Published Research Findings Are False.” He contended that <b>scientists “may be prejudiced purely because of their belief in a scientific theory or commitment to their own findings.”</b></div><div><br /></div><div><b>“The greater the financial and other interests and prejudices in a scientific field, the less likely the research findings are to be true,”</b> Dr. Ioannidis argued. “Many otherwise seemingly independent, university-based studies may be conducted for no other reason than to give physicians and researchers qualifications for promotion or tenure.”</div><div><br /></div><div>In addition, <b>many scientists use the peer-review process to suppress findings that challenge their own beliefs, which perpetuates “false dogma.” </b></div><div><br /></div><div>[Exactly what the <i>Interpreter </i>does.]</div><div><br /></div><div>As Dr. Ioannidis explained, the more scientists there are in a field, the more competition there is to get published and the more likely they are to produce “impressive ‘positive’ results” and “extreme research claims.”</div><div><br /></div><div>The same dynamic applies to Covid research. A July study in the Journal of the American Medical Association purported to find higher rates of excess deaths among Republican voters in Florida and Ohio after vaccines had been rolled out. Differences in partisan vaccination attitude, the study concluded, may have contributed to the “severity and trajectory of the pandemic.”</div><div><br /></div><div>But the study lacked information on individuals’ vaccination and cause of death. It also didn’t adjust for confounding variables, such as underlying health conditions and behaviors. Charts buried in the study’s appendix showed excess deaths among older Republicans started to exceed Democrats in mid-2020—well before vaccines were available.</div><div><br /></div><div><b>Despite these flaws,</b> the study was published and pumped by left-wing journalists because it promoted their preferred narrative. ...</div></div><div><br /></div><div><div>Journals often don’t compensate peer reviewers, which can result in perfunctory work. <b>The bigger problem is that reviewers often disregard a study’s flaws when its conclusions reinforce their own biases. </b>One result is that “a large share of what is published may not be replicable or is obviously false,” Dr. Ioannidis notes. “Even outright fraud may be becoming more common.”</div><div><br /></div><div>As scientists struggle to publish against-the-grain research, many are turning to preprint servers—online academic repositories—to debunk studies in mainstream journals. Yet even some of those sites, such as the Social Science Research Network, are blocking studies that don’t fit preapproved narratives.</div><div><br /></div><div>...</div><div><br /></div><div>Scientific journals and preprint servers aren’t selective about research quality. <b>They’re selective about the conclusions.</b> If experts want to know why so many Americans don’t trust “science,” they have their answer. Too many scientists no longer care about science.</div></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-14241135368252062992023-09-01T08:39:00.007-07:002023-09-01T08:39:44.283-07:00From Darkness Unto Light review<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg4z3CPH_5vlw2OPukK98dMCZW2eZEXB8dGoyoDT2ojYu25ACzPg0yV6SWlY38Jh5uKwPe-9YH2VppJUk4yNmhe9p2Ba82A2X46PVdbktttMfPZPCpOnZgKitWOKjsF7Tm8YrM6t-j4t6UJ_DrSXhQCUIurXANiianXtx0dgOpdTbWf_HRr3bvWumK9U9M" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="500" data-original-width="333" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg4z3CPH_5vlw2OPukK98dMCZW2eZEXB8dGoyoDT2ojYu25ACzPg0yV6SWlY38Jh5uKwPe-9YH2VppJUk4yNmhe9p2Ba82A2X46PVdbktttMfPZPCpOnZgKitWOKjsF7Tm8YrM6t-j4t6UJ_DrSXhQCUIurXANiianXtx0dgOpdTbWf_HRr3bvWumK9U9M" width="160" /></a></div><br />Readers of this blog may not realize I posted a review of the MacKay/Dirkmaat book here:<p></p><p><a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2022/07/from-darkness-unto-light-omitting.html" target="_blank">https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2022/07/from-darkness-unto-light-omitting.html</a></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-56923854062680392572023-08-28T16:12:00.006-07:002023-08-28T16:19:03.263-07:00SITH origin: Dehlin, Smoot, MacKay, Dirkmaat<p> Because this involves an article in the Interpreter, I'm archiving it here from one of my other blogs.</p><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: #fdfafe; color: #2a33d5; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;">_____</h3><div class="post-header" style="background-color: #fdfafe; color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><div class="post-header-line-1"></div></div><div class="post-body entry-content" id="post-body-2478170645506102221" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586px;"><p>No one has a problem with historians (or anyone else) proposing interpretations of the historical record. We all understand the concept of multiple working hypotheses, and we all agree people can believe whatever they want.</p><p>But we expect people to at least be clear about the facts and the assumptions, inferences, and theories that lead to their hypotheses and conclusions. </p><p>When we pursue clarity, charity, and understanding, we start with clarity for a reason. Obfuscation and misdirection don't lead to understanding but to confusion. People can't make informed decisions when they don't have clarity about the facts--and about the difference between facts and assumptions, inferences, etc. When people simply omit facts to persuade others to accept their hypotheses, we all want an explanation for why they omitted those facts. </p><p>IOW, don't just omit relevant facts without at least explaining why. We may or may not agree with your explanation, but we want to know you have one.</p><p>_____</p><p>In the pursuit of clarity, we've <a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2023/04/mike-parker-clarifies-part-iii.html" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">seen previously</a> how M2C originated with a map published in 1917 (and 1918, 1919, and 1923) by an RLDS scholar named L.E. Hills* whose theory that the "real Cumorah/Ramah" was in Mexico was promptly rejected by both RLDS and LDS leaders who reaffirmed what Joseph and Oliver taught. But LDS scholars who rejected what the prophets taught about Cumorah persisted in promoting Hills' M2C theory. They've raised and spent millions of dollars from faithful Latter-day Saints to all but erase the New York Cumorah/Ramah from the collective memory of the Church.</p><p>Fortunately, no amount of money can erase what everyone can read right in the <a href="http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Joseph Smith Papers</a>.</p><p>And, as always, if anyone thinks I've erred or misstated anything, feel free to email me at lostzarahemla@gmail.com and I'll make the corrections. </p><p>_____</p><p>A similar process is underway to establish SITH (the stone-in-the-hat theory), particularly by John Dehlin, Stephen O. Smoot, Michael Hubbard MacKay, and Gerrit J. Dirkmaat.</p><p>As we'll see, Smoot/MacKay/Dirkmaat omitted highly relevant facts about SITH and invented an opposite narrative instead that they've promoted heavily. In the pursuit of charity, we can assume they have a good faith reason for doing so, but it's difficult to imagine what that might be. At any rate, they should have disclosed the facts and explained why they omitted them.</p><p>Here's the problem. Not only did they publish this false narrative years ago with no pushback from the LDS scholarly community, but as recently as this year--2023--they persuaded Deseret Book to promote the false narrative with additional embellishments--all to establish SITH as the only acceptable explanation for the Book of Mormon.</p><p>_____</p><p>Some people think SITH became prominent among Latter-day Saints because of Richard Bushman's book <i>Rough Stone Rolling</i>, published in 2007. But Bushman accurately reported the historical accounts. He could/should have clarified a few things and added additional references, as suggested here, <a href="https://www.mobom.org/rsr-review" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://www.mobom.org/rsr-review</a>, but he didn't change the historical record to promote an agenda. </p><p>John Dehlin's 2013 "<a href="https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_R28e.pdf" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Faith Crisis Report</a>" took SITH a step further by claiming SITH was the actual origin of the Book of Mormon and that there was a "gap" between the "true" SITH accounts and the "false" teachings of the Church regarding the Urim and Thummim. Dehlin's Mormon Stories podcast has repeated that theme ever since.</p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 4px; position: relative;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEigr--AqejBMQD5_ajnjLUj2fLYK1krGpjqxmv2CMuS9e9Tc3kHbx3-41FdYq67PvHlnM4_hKfwAzHDONn6RKXfsAmUDfOFVYaw24AQ1MSrj32IyLyapMLKpY6aIv5-cJ9ANuUq2HMSemGm5Bp5ZFz40DJtB-xXe7p8Ktwf6yTkKfGq5WMGVStp9O6tz-k/s769/Mormon%20stories%20on%20Translation.jpg" style="color: #2a33d5; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-decoration-line: none;"><img border="0" data-original-height="598" data-original-width="769" height="249" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEigr--AqejBMQD5_ajnjLUj2fLYK1krGpjqxmv2CMuS9e9Tc3kHbx3-41FdYq67PvHlnM4_hKfwAzHDONn6RKXfsAmUDfOFVYaw24AQ1MSrj32IyLyapMLKpY6aIv5-cJ9ANuUq2HMSemGm5Bp5ZFz40DJtB-xXe7p8Ktwf6yTkKfGq5WMGVStp9O6tz-k/s320/Mormon%20stories%20on%20Translation.jpg" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.2) 0px 0px 20px; padding: 8px; position: relative;" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="font-size: 10.4px; text-align: center;">(click to enlarge)</td></tr></tbody></table><p></p><p>Dehlin's report led to the publication of the Gospel Topics Essays, including the essay on Book of Mormon Translation which adopted Dehlin's narrative. The essay doesn't even quote what Joseph and Oliver said about the translation; instead, it selectively quotes from other sources to promote the Dehlin narrative. For an analysis, see <a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2022/09/analysis-gospel-topics-essay-on-book-of.html" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2022/09/analysis-gospel-topics-essay-on-book-of.html</a>.</p><p></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEheQSUib0APHA-RAgNQJ_rsJ-2TGDLJssHtZpoVmShNVqhNg13iY6JNl9_trhUsFs5hW8C0fIksa1KKDi89IYTdrA0Z-beg2bwjTROBtLphWQ1KCWFt9iRz62hC3r_kTB1CpofQGvtyH2796bsRL-7JzJgV_WmFZpMWivHWlIo5No_KFMWlHkgcfgQrV6A/s500/From%20Darkness%20Unto%20Light%20cover.jpg" style="clear: left; color: #2a33d5; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><img border="0" data-original-height="500" data-original-width="333" height="200" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEheQSUib0APHA-RAgNQJ_rsJ-2TGDLJssHtZpoVmShNVqhNg13iY6JNl9_trhUsFs5hW8C0fIksa1KKDi89IYTdrA0Z-beg2bwjTROBtLphWQ1KCWFt9iRz62hC3r_kTB1CpofQGvtyH2796bsRL-7JzJgV_WmFZpMWivHWlIo5No_KFMWlHkgcfgQrV6A/w133-h200/From%20Darkness%20Unto%20Light%20cover.jpg" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.2) 0px 0px 20px; padding: 8px; position: relative;" width="133" /></a></div>The 2015 book <i>From Darkness Unto Light</i>, by <span style="background-color: #fff9ee; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px;">Michael Hubbard MacKay and Gerrit J. Dirkmaat,</span> quoted original sources and wove a narrative that further persuaded many Latter-day Saints to accept SITH (the stone-in-the-hat theory). However, without explaining why, the authors omitted original sources that contradicted SITH. Worse, they also falsified the historical record to promote SITH. <p></p><p><b>Specifically, they invented a narrative around Jonathan Hadley, who published the first known account of the translation.</b> </p><p>Smoot/MacKay/Dirkmaat claim Joseph Smith visited Hadley to ask if he would publish the Book of Mormon. They claim Joseph related the SITH account to him. They claim that Hadley was initially amiable toward Joseph Smith, and that Hadley's account should be accepted on its face.</p><p>Yet in an account they don't even cite (let alone quote), <i>Hadley himself</i> said it was Martin Harris alone who visited him. Hadley never said Joseph visited him. He never said he ever met Joseph. And he explained that he not only refused to have anything to do with the publication, but that he would "expose" the "whole Mormon gang" if they succeeded in publishing the Book of Mormon.</p><p><b>IOW, Smoot/MacKay/Dirkmaat claim SITH originated with Joseph Smith, when the historical record shows us that it originated with an avowed antagonist who had never even met Joseph Smith.</b></p><p><span style="background-color: #fff9ee; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px;">Stephen O. Smoot wrote an enthusiastic review in the <i>Interpreter</i>.</span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b00fe; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px; text-align: justify; text-indent: 38px;">But perhaps the most fascinating insight to be found in this section of the book is the discussion of Jonathan A. Hadley’s 1829 <b>account of his visit with Joseph Smith</b>. Printer of the </span><em style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #2b00fe; font-family: minion-pro-n4, minion-pro-1, minion-pro-2, "Palatino Linotype", "Book Antiqua", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; text-indent: 38px; vertical-align: baseline;">Palmyra Freeman</em><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b00fe; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px; text-align: justify; text-indent: 38px;">, Hadley reported in August 1829 that <b>the Prophet had recently come to him</b> seeking to contract the publication of the Book of Mormon. </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b00fe; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px; text-align: justify; text-indent: 38px;">Although he contemptuously dismissed his account of the recovery of the plates, Hadley nevertheless reported Joseph’s description to him of the physical dimensions thereof. </span></p></blockquote><p><span style="background-color: #fff9ee; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px;">This is the type of "peer approval" at the <i>Interpreter </i>that we've all come to know and love. It's what happens when people rely on what others write without looking at the original sources.</span></p><p><span style="background-color: #fff9ee; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px;"><br /></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi7LwVv7tF8VniQDgroU4Dnno9dhECeDLicnAgeBTj5npb_eWd_ZwaQ_sXSFRc3QoT5DJl3U3XMNZlNekfW68c1tT1SbXt48_EL2a7tJ64Nv-0USJsWvtk1aDGP7uaUbLwe5L3qs7pQ5uQitJgJ9M9mzyAC7fKLHIfEyhQWqZ15XAGwQfqUuvjnQF3VRc8/s499/Let's%20talk%20about%20cover.jpg" style="clear: left; color: #2a33d5; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><img border="0" data-original-height="499" data-original-width="303" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi7LwVv7tF8VniQDgroU4Dnno9dhECeDLicnAgeBTj5npb_eWd_ZwaQ_sXSFRc3QoT5DJl3U3XMNZlNekfW68c1tT1SbXt48_EL2a7tJ64Nv-0USJsWvtk1aDGP7uaUbLwe5L3qs7pQ5uQitJgJ9M9mzyAC7fKLHIfEyhQWqZ15XAGwQfqUuvjnQF3VRc8/s320/Let's%20talk%20about%20cover.jpg" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.2) 0px 0px 20px; padding: 8px; position: relative;" width="194" /></a></div>MacKay and Dirkmaat were so enamored with their Hadley narrative that they included it <b>on the first page </b>of their latest book, <i>Let's Talk About </i><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><span style="font-size: 15.4px;"><i>the Translation of the Book of Mormon</i>, published in 2023 by Deseret Book.</span></span><p></p><p><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><span style="font-size: 15.4px;">Consequently, Deseret Book is officially on record for promoting the false narrative that SITH originated with Joseph Smith.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px;">I posted a detailed analysis about all of this. It's an excerpt from the appendix in an upcoming book about LDS apologetics. You can read it here:</span></p><p><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><span style="font-size: 15.4px;"><a href="http://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2023/08/the-jonathan-hadley-account-and-sith.html" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">http://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2023/08/the-jonathan-hadley-account-and-sith.html</a> </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><span style="font-size: 15.4px;">Here's a brief example of the Smoot/MacKay/Dirkmaat narrative, compared to what Hadley actually said. </span></span></p><table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none;"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312"><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">Smoot, MacKay, Dirkmaat<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312"><p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">Hadley<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312"><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="background: rgb(255, 249, 238); color: #2b00fe; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 11.5pt;">Though Hadley's small-time operation could not accommodate the herculean project of printing the Book of Mormon<b>, he went from amiable to incensed</b> after Joseph eventually agreed to terms with the recalcitrant Grandin rather than Hadley's more well-positioned friend in Rochester.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="background: rgb(255, 249, 238); color: #2b00fe; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 11.5pt;"><b>Joseph had described to Hadley</b> many of the remarkable events that had let him to the plates and how they were translated. Now Hadley determined to undermine Joseph Smith by relating the fantastical events Joseph had told him.</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; padding: 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312"><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="background: rgb(255, 249, 238); font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 11.5pt;">Soon after the translation was completed, </span><b>I was one day waited upon by Harris</b>, and offered the printing of the Book of Mormon. This was in the summer of 1829, at which time I was carrying on the printing business at Palmyra. Harris owned a good farm in that town, and offered to mortgage it to secure the expense of printing. Though he was a subscriber to my paper, and had frequently "labored" to convert me to the Mormon faith, <b>I was so sceptical as to utterly refuse to have any "part or lot" in the imposition, telling him at the same time, that if he proceeded with the publication, I should feel it my duty, as the conductor of a faithful public journal, to expose him and the whole Mormon gang.</b> He took the work, however, to the other office in the village, and it was soon put to press. It was then I wrote and published an article, which you may recollect, headed "THE GOLDEN BIBLE," giving a history of the humbug up to that time. This article was extensively copied, <i>it having been the first ever published about the Mormons</i>.<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><span style="font-size: 15.4px;">The </span></span><span style="background-color: #fff9ee; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px;">MacKay/Dirkmaat </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><span style="font-size: 15.4px;">narrative as it appears on the first page of <i>Let's Talk About</i>:</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgT5LZa_R6p7gj7HCP2Kf8hWNlUcnzMzn_MzizDboJXtzDg01-UZRNm0nIH57ieH_1diipLMOz4NsICazo1NT1Y6j7sB1_yINZmzsaTS7NBJbgevfL5ulKkUMTprWolMHa9nlcdPkO8LVOc561qbrPWID5lhMeNEKOhge_jc63Eh-NaH5BUHXsBslxpH8I/s3540/Let's%20talk%20about%20p.1.jpg" style="color: #2a33d5; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><img border="0" data-original-height="3540" data-original-width="2167" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgT5LZa_R6p7gj7HCP2Kf8hWNlUcnzMzn_MzizDboJXtzDg01-UZRNm0nIH57ieH_1diipLMOz4NsICazo1NT1Y6j7sB1_yINZmzsaTS7NBJbgevfL5ulKkUMTprWolMHa9nlcdPkO8LVOc561qbrPWID5lhMeNEKOhge_jc63Eh-NaH5BUHXsBslxpH8I/w245-h400/Let's%20talk%20about%20p.1.jpg" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.2) 0px 0px 20px; padding: 8px; position: relative;" width="245" /></a></span></div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><br /><span style="font-size: 15.4px;">Smoot promoting SITH in the Interpreter:</span></span><p></p><p><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh5HiiTQQi2PGJUBife9ywB3nzmRXL-JTglBRypq4fc1NUslLIPVvnFYBuF2N_J63cVgxTmHO85KaxXcczA0CGZ_N2ukxXnzd7lbEDAsJpwMyWhGZ-S1cKufTxsW4XS8TzuG7aZz2e1Q9FDSJxL4RuJigUAbTLSD36OQBTPwSROrwUedbXCKbERaAOi-o8/s790/Smoot%20promoting%20SITH.jpg" style="color: #2a33d5; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><img border="0" data-original-height="723" data-original-width="790" height="293" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh5HiiTQQi2PGJUBife9ywB3nzmRXL-JTglBRypq4fc1NUslLIPVvnFYBuF2N_J63cVgxTmHO85KaxXcczA0CGZ_N2ukxXnzd7lbEDAsJpwMyWhGZ-S1cKufTxsW4XS8TzuG7aZz2e1Q9FDSJxL4RuJigUAbTLSD36OQBTPwSROrwUedbXCKbERaAOi-o8/s320/Smoot%20promoting%20SITH.jpg" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.2) 0px 0px 20px; padding: 8px; position: relative;" width="320" /></a></span></div><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><br /><span style="font-size: 15.4px;"><br /></span></span><p></p><p><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif;"><span style="font-size: 15.4px;"><br /></span></span></p><p><span style="background-color: #fff9ee; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px;">_____</span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.4px; text-align: justify; text-indent: 38px;">*</span>The simulation winked at us by having a guy named "Hills" promote the idea of "two hills Cumorah" or M2C (the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory). We should have known all along it was fake news.</p></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-12365266937953043182023-05-10T22:28:00.001-07:002023-05-10T22:28:09.521-07:00Why Most Published Research Findings Are False<p><span style="background-color: white; color: #202020; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">A new paper helps explain why the </span><i style="color: #202020; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Interpreters</i><span style="background-color: white; color: #202020; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"> (including FAIRLDS, Book of Mormon Central, the Interpreter, Mormon Stories, and the CES Letter) all coalesce around SITH.</span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #202020; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">These groups all promote the prevailing bias that Joseph Smith didn't really translate anything.</span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #202020; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #202020; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">_____</span></p><h1 id="artTitle" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #202020; font-family: "Open Sans", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 26px; line-height: 27px; margin: 0px 0px 9px; padding: 0px; text-rendering: optimizelegibility;">Why Most Published Research Findings Are False</h1><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124" target="_blank">https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124</a></div><div><br /></div><div>"<span style="background-color: white; color: #202020; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Simulations show that for most study designs and settings, it is more likely for a research claim to be false than true. Moreover, for many current scientific fields, <b>claimed research findings may often be simply accurate measures of the prevailing bias.</b>"</span></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #202020; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br /></span></div><div><br /></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-88613521442301369282023-05-02T22:40:00.005-07:002023-05-03T21:16:09.297-07:00Dan Peterson turns a new leaf?<p>A friend sent me this fine-sounding article:</p><p><a href="https://www.ldsliving.com/why-latter-day-saints-need-to-defend-our-beliefs-even-as-we-avoid-contention/s/89635" target="_blank">https://www.ldsliving.com/why-latter-day-saints-need-to-defend-our-beliefs-even-as-we-avoid-contention/s/89635</a></p><p>It's wonderful to see Dan call for no more contention after I started my blog <a href="http://nomorecontention.com" target="_blank">nomorecontention.com</a>.</p><p>This could be another breakthrough from the Interpreters. </p><p>Imagine how different the conversation would be if, when speaking or writing about fellow Latter-day Saints with whom they disagree, Dan and the Interpreters changed course and chose to "call upon them to meet you both in public and in private" instead of taking potshots and hiding behind the racist Peter Pan pseudonym to engage?</p><p>I would be happy if they ever accepted my invitations to meet and work through differences, but so far they've consistently refused. And I've never declined an invitation from them to meet in private or in public.</p><p>_____</p><p>Part of this article is an excellent sentiment that everyone should endorse. Avoiding contention is the purpose of the <a href="http://nomorecontention.com" target="_blank">nomorecontention.com</a> site.</p><p>But what about the "defending our beliefs" part? </p><p>The very terminology'--"defending"--invokes contention. The King James translators thoughtfully used "answer" instead of "defense" because the passage refers to someone "asking for a reason" for the hope that is in us. This calls for an explanation or an answer, not a defensive assumption that an answer is an attack. </p><p>Framing it as a "defense" implies an accusation. While maybe more technically correct to translate it as "defend" from the <a href="https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_627.htm" target="_blank">Greek</a>, the KJV translators suggested an answer is a non-contentious way to respond when people ask about the hope that is in us. Instead of being defensive, simply answer or explain our reasons in a positive, confident and enthusiastic way.</p><p>This involves clarity and understanding, not offensive and defensive posturing.</p><p>And what beliefs is Dan defending, anyway?</p><p>Certainly Dan is entitled to defend his beliefs, which are squarely in the "Some" category.</p><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoNormalTable" style="border-collapse: collapse; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184;">
<tbody><tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border: solid windowtext 3.0pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 465.0pt;" valign="top" width="620">
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Believe
what Joseph and Oliver claimed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 3.0pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext 3.0pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 154.85pt;" valign="top" width="206">
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">All<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 3.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 3.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext 3.0pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext 3.0pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 155.25pt;" valign="top" width="207">
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Some<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 3.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 3.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext 3.0pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext 3.0pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 154.9pt;" valign="top" width="207">
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">None<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 3.0pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext 3.0pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 154.85pt;" valign="top" width="206">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Believe what Joseph and Oliver
claimed about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 3.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 3.0pt; border-top: none; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 155.25pt;" valign="top" width="207">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Believe some, but not all, of what
Joseph and Oliver claimed about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 3.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 3.0pt; border-top: none; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 154.9pt;" valign="top" width="207">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Disbelieve what Joseph and Oliver
claimed about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table><p><br />There's nothing wrong with the "Some" category, but we all need to be crystal clear about what beliefs were are explaining.</p><p>Maybe in the future, Dan and the other Interpreters will take his own advice. </p><p>Maybe Dan will come to disavow, discontinue, and discourage the long-standing practice of the Interpreters who continually criticize, mock and belittle fellow Latter-day Saints who disagree with him.</p><p>Let's all hope so!</p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-33229444677206954192023-04-27T21:54:00.003-07:002023-04-27T21:54:29.813-07:00How the Interpreters perpetrated the racist Peter Pan fraud <p>Apparently Dan has decided to perpetuate the Peter Pan disaster by discussing it on his blog.</p><p>Some, probably most, of the readers of the <i>Interpreter </i>have not watched Bill Reel's expose of the Peter Pan fiasco. Here is part of a summary.</p><p>At one point, Bill points out that Mike Parker and other Interpreters apparently claimed that Bill would show excerpts from the video Mike did with Robert Boylan. Instead, as anyone can see, Bill played the entire thing. What Bill adds is that it was Mike and Robert who edited out a key part of their recording!</p><p>In the since-deleted passage, Mike describes the complicity of the <i>Interpreter </i>magazine and labels the entire episode as a "sort of a joke."</p><p>Here is the transcript from the part of the video in which Bill played a portion of the video that Mike and his friends edited out of the one they put up on youtube.</p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiLh0fx9EHprFUEMxFEoICz9f-VgASjr6YjXzDQUxZlM64giFNW0RGtLwBd3Gs8iHZ07N4qoSRZXheLiGaK5HFmj-dyT4pl31BSGX3H6_MO3oh3aLAvx8MoSwlZrW99EnSrTGOBvqZjeQwfmLM1NuhdsXL3qKI16Bwup3_fBeQIFCdoo9AN_Zt8AM4x/s247/Bill%20Reel%20Mike%20Parker%20kind%20of%20a%20joke.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="91" data-original-width="247" height="236" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiLh0fx9EHprFUEMxFEoICz9f-VgASjr6YjXzDQUxZlM64giFNW0RGtLwBd3Gs8iHZ07N4qoSRZXheLiGaK5HFmj-dyT4pl31BSGX3H6_MO3oh3aLAvx8MoSwlZrW99EnSrTGOBvqZjeQwfmLM1NuhdsXL3qKI16Bwup3_fBeQIFCdoo9AN_Zt8AM4x/w640-h236/Bill%20Reel%20Mike%20Parker%20kind%20of%20a%20joke.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Mike Parker and Robert Boylan talking </td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p>People can watch it starting here: <a href="https://youtu.be/Jhu3TSjDHj0?t=9136" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/Jhu3TSjDHj0?t=9136</a></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p>2:32:16 Bill Reel: they accused us, they said we were going to cut up clips and take everything out of context. We didn't do that. We played the whole thing. uh I don't think there's anything that we needed to do like I think it's so plain to people who are watching this this obfuscation and dishonesty that I don't have a need to paint a new narrative. </p><p>We're the ones I think who are telling the truth on this issue but it is important to note that they actually did cut out a clip and we'll play that right now.</p><p>2:32:46 Mike Parker: but about this same time um Spencer Krause is getting ready to publish his reviews in Interpreter of two of Jonathan Neville's books and <b>he offered as kind of a lighthearted uh sort of humorous thing</b> in his acknowledgments at the bottom that he was going to thank several people and he mentioned me by name you know thanks so-and-so and Mike Parker for this and I also thank the pseudonymous Peter Pan who operates the Neville Neville land blog, you know. </p><p>And so <b>this was kind of a haha sort of a joke </b>but also you know maybe a light way of kind of just throwing people off the scent.</p><p>Bill: It's another admittance of throwing people off the scent.</p></blockquote><p>At this point of the video, Bill shows where the Interpreters first invented their racist alter ego for Peter Pan.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgMHXaLbLACMIqwsgfpPEb7qcUFuzHshqG2o7nYVFhvozp9URtKNMqkP1IlycMMwEzghjaaA674Gefbvlur8lAyrKhyU3D-AsNNivqXHqZgoUCGqP_v92egHp4QfpJ8PvDdUABnUrKtNN40MueG3cMNEdS3cYx_ZSYcI3Q43G1HgqvdPxoNxmRP3pZr/s827/Bill%20Reel%20-%20Robert%20Boyland.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="447" data-original-width="827" height="173" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgMHXaLbLACMIqwsgfpPEb7qcUFuzHshqG2o7nYVFhvozp9URtKNMqkP1IlycMMwEzghjaaA674Gefbvlur8lAyrKhyU3D-AsNNivqXHqZgoUCGqP_v92egHp4QfpJ8PvDdUABnUrKtNN40MueG3cMNEdS3cYx_ZSYcI3Q43G1HgqvdPxoNxmRP3pZr/s320/Bill%20Reel%20-%20Robert%20Boyland.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>on the left hand side you can see</p><p>18:08</p><p>Robert Bolin at LDS apologist or apologen and he's got an image of</p><p>18:15</p><p>Brigham Young holding a firearm and he's not it's not even pointing it at uh</p><p>18:21</p><p>ex-mormons or anti-mormons right which you sort of can get instead he says</p><p>18:26</p><p>Brigham Young has a message for progmos Progressive Mormons these are believing uh Latter-Day Saints on some level</p><p>18:34</p><p>and they're active in the church on some level and he's got Brigham Young pointing a firearm at him so if that's</p><p>18:40</p><p>any indication of the kind of messaging he seems really comfortable with</p><p>18:45</p><p>uh it's also of note that he has worked closely with Fair Mormon I've got an image of one of the podcasts that they</p><p>18:50</p><p>did a Sunday special with Robert and he also works closely with The</p><p>18:56</p><p>Interpreter I'm gonna play the audio of him for the very first time this is the</p><p>19:01</p><p>very first mention of Richard Nygren uh anything you want to say before we play the video well I just want to say I'm</p><p>19:07</p><p>friends with a lot of progressive Mormons um very good friends and I when I look at this image</p><p>19:14</p><p>and I think of the who he wants to have that gun pointed at I'm I find that to be very sad and very</p><p>19:20</p><p>unchristian yeah it's super absolutely offensive for sure um okay so here uh is that video clip</p><p>19:28</p><p>and if you'll just give me a thumbs up as it starts to play to let me know if the sound is playing okay and uh we'll</p><p>19:34</p><p>be good oh I should have mentioned uh loudly</p><p>19:40</p><p>life into true.blogspot.com and of course there's also Russian migrants blog Neville Neville land a</p><p>19:47</p><p>Blog critique in Johnson Neville mainly but also other Herbert proponents where he posted a nickname Peter Pan uh</p><p>19:54</p><p>Richard is one of only a few African-American apologists in the church at the moment and he lives in</p><p>19:59</p><p>Birmingham Alabama um so be sure to check those out as well in</p><p>20:05</p><p>the show notes Okay so</p><p>20:11</p><p>and it's important to note that nowhere else on the internet</p><p>20:17</p><p>anywhere is is there a uh black believing Latter-Day Saint defending the</p><p>20:23</p><p>church under the name of Richard Nygren this is the very first time that anyone in the LDS Mormon World heard the name</p><p>20:32</p><p>Richard Nygren and it comes out of the mouth of Robert Bolin</p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-51288609504297353882023-04-24T12:30:00.001-07:002023-04-24T12:30:00.142-07:00Purging Mike Parker?<p>Mike Parker's newfound popularity as the subject of Bill Reel's <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhu3TSjDHj0&t=9338s" target="_blank">popular video</a> is shining a light on other Interpreters as well. </p><p>I assume that all of the people associated with the <i>Interpreter </i>are sincere, smart, faithful, and wonderful human beings, including Mike. For some of them, though, apologetics has shaped their worldview contrary to their better judgment, as we see in Bill Reel's video and the ensuing fallout. </p><p>I hope Bill's video will lead to a reformation at the <i>Interpreter </i>in terms of being more inclusive and respectful, at least regarding faithful Latter-day Saints who don't share the positions and "interpretations" enforced by the <i>Interpreter </i>editorial board. </p><p><b>But realistically, the organization's name--Interpreter Foundation--precludes any sort of traditional or open scholarly inquiry.</b></p><p>The name reflects the mindset of the organization.</p><p>Mike's "Peter Pan" fiasco, warmly embraced and promoted by Dan Peterson and other Interpreters, has pulled back the curtain on the darker side of LDS apologetics. As the "Interpreters," the editors and their regular contributors have appointed themselves as gatekeepers. They enforce their own "interpretations" through their system of peer-approval, their closed incestuous citation loop, and their style of apologetics following the Dan Peterson model. </p><p>Purging Mike Parker seems unfair and unnecessary. But also insufficient. After all, his antics didn't occur in a vacuum. It seems unlikely that anyone at the <i>Interpreter </i>was unaware of Mike's "Peter Pan" alter ego, given Dan's frequent and enthusiastic endorsement. From the outside, it looks like Mike is taking the blame for the entire organization. After all, the <i>Interpreter</i> journal itself perpetuated the Peter Pan fraud, as we see in Bill's video.</p><p>But now Peter Pan is becoming the public identity of the <i>Interpreter</i>. Already, in less than a week, Bill Reel's video has more youtube views than all but 4 of the Interpreter's youtube videos (and those were released years ago).</p><p>Because I haven't watched the Interpreter's Scripture Roundtables or podcasts, I didn't realize Mike was such an integral part of the Interpreter team for so long. </p><p>But now he's omitted from the list of hosts, despite his having hosted numerous podcasts and videos over the years.</p><p><a href="https://interpreterfoundation.org/category/interpreter-radio/" target="_blank">https://interpreterfoundation.org/category/interpreter-radio/</a></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEioFUQJ1sF9DrtDQwLRpYSPA8SWS4zWBsBc3CB3hXnjMXauhNipeY5cqixehp-QXJw36TVUjL-27T0ee-0MaZhAPDhhncSupcxJYdtq7pCF_sgQYSNum3XIntwzndHzyN8Q04VEec-iUYtqdTOi9b0t62mZB3AUyeUE5NekzvaCEnJTWfvLMDX0DZ1p/s1648/Interpreter%20hosts%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="733" data-original-width="1648" height="142" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEioFUQJ1sF9DrtDQwLRpYSPA8SWS4zWBsBc3CB3hXnjMXauhNipeY5cqixehp-QXJw36TVUjL-27T0ee-0MaZhAPDhhncSupcxJYdtq7pCF_sgQYSNum3XIntwzndHzyN8Q04VEec-iUYtqdTOi9b0t62mZB3AUyeUE5NekzvaCEnJTWfvLMDX0DZ1p/s320/Interpreter%20hosts%201.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEijEZlLFJDHFCLKfPbEicwwaae3c9gGThT-jcHvvSyZNGkc_QtJoQYWhEM4aZW9l8Ew87RvlS7o1QR1QteMnnDqHz1DVfMvexscYgDx796CYkwYlXQU8SUfFmEry_31wmsdlrLmVV2nONsIkpdr5QGpI2PV8LqX8UVlok9Rq4zYd5uIXGeJJ7FqB5B2/s1587/Interpreter%20hosts%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="730" data-original-width="1587" height="147" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEijEZlLFJDHFCLKfPbEicwwaae3c9gGThT-jcHvvSyZNGkc_QtJoQYWhEM4aZW9l8Ew87RvlS7o1QR1QteMnnDqHz1DVfMvexscYgDx796CYkwYlXQU8SUfFmEry_31wmsdlrLmVV2nONsIkpdr5QGpI2PV8LqX8UVlok9Rq4zYd5uIXGeJJ7FqB5B2/s320/Interpreter%20hosts%202.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgu3xpLvQmjVSnAkEtsH_W-1vSLhEVDpwGfDtogN1yhQc6l3jfb750Zq15o322SaSd6Phn54-yILD5I3047ZNYBa_U84KtHW3nhCQAfAxK0_mzrq00b4hEqqRFLKBEFW2l-IMdOysBTcjRDMl_nqsHK-Yil-MzAdUFFI3XZvJusO-fDZmcFYVl10eai/s1591/Interpreter%20hosts%203.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="745" data-original-width="1591" height="150" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgu3xpLvQmjVSnAkEtsH_W-1vSLhEVDpwGfDtogN1yhQc6l3jfb750Zq15o322SaSd6Phn54-yILD5I3047ZNYBa_U84KtHW3nhCQAfAxK0_mzrq00b4hEqqRFLKBEFW2l-IMdOysBTcjRDMl_nqsHK-Yil-MzAdUFFI3XZvJusO-fDZmcFYVl10eai/s320/Interpreter%20hosts%203.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>Ten years ago Mike was a regular panelist. </p><p>On January 9, 2013, he joined Ben McGuire, Daniel Peterson, and Martin Tanner as panelists for this roundtable.</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q32DCMK0BJA&list=PLRMn4gyXMWLv0J_LWTAaS-BGIatyJ0tF8&index=6" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q32DCMK0BJA&list=PLRMn4gyXMWLv0J_LWTAaS-BGIatyJ0tF8&index=6</a></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgznf4yjlLlNpVmqbeSUcQmhdWvK2q6GMIyIZifBSRCHXKFaTzXbYwZ2Z1-CUchpxTIoCqpacC06aTy_xD7-QveKbdUj8hUooxuHuQOjmPk6FukzCzuEn7x9HW-JGd2PcYSAYZfft9q1b67ILSDNJqIU8IRncflddtk2fo0X_N9xB0_SVPrvJ2K4GDQ/s1301/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20roundtable%20with%20Dan%202013.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="864" data-original-width="1301" height="213" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgznf4yjlLlNpVmqbeSUcQmhdWvK2q6GMIyIZifBSRCHXKFaTzXbYwZ2Z1-CUchpxTIoCqpacC06aTy_xD7-QveKbdUj8hUooxuHuQOjmPk6FukzCzuEn7x9HW-JGd2PcYSAYZfft9q1b67ILSDNJqIU8IRncflddtk2fo0X_N9xB0_SVPrvJ2K4GDQ/s320/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20roundtable%20with%20Dan%202013.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><div><br /></div>In December 2013, he joined Stephen Smoot, Mike Parker, Jeffrey Bradshaw, and Martin Tanner. Stephen Smoot, of course, also appears in the Bill Reel video.<div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNw-RlAtokY" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNw-RlAtokY</a></div><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh6wgQXqzyUQ1igZzEtUll-up0pZB0dUxueXuIwxdIdAzrB4rXPjEuYJMosJc3-Xr5yRg1CKrJ8xfGZEhrapeXTdCDMvdiv9DvFgKWk8_e3ZS78b2_JONMG547Ain5AsLDBsrbHRrT0T7xi1iC9YY91AIE4udZolNEyd0r2U8EqUAw7fHmx7u16KwFx/s1665/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20on%20youtube.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1318" data-original-width="1665" height="253" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh6wgQXqzyUQ1igZzEtUll-up0pZB0dUxueXuIwxdIdAzrB4rXPjEuYJMosJc3-Xr5yRg1CKrJ8xfGZEhrapeXTdCDMvdiv9DvFgKWk8_e3ZS78b2_JONMG547Ain5AsLDBsrbHRrT0T7xi1iC9YY91AIE4udZolNEyd0r2U8EqUAw7fHmx7u16KwFx/s320/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20on%20youtube.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div><p>Within the last year, while promoting his Peter Pan charade, Mike has hosted several <i>Interpreter </i>podcasts. His co-hosts are still included in the list of "Our Hosts" as we can see above.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgow9VkUD_LiUo5z6gLLRpPdg1BFYcc0MMnOieS1SLXZCbXhL1BpUWD8nrD-n93OIXPOYiMxyVo5eOBiXnBbU5ibGaeOuysifqDbHR9-rBOOm8RO0TURtLG9zfC7lrycrgxIfpc0CZo9OuG0FfblKaNaHO4tcG7hbyhb8jwCEp6-DLEkuh5BHmxZj42/s1223/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Apr%2017%202022.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1221" data-original-width="1223" height="319" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgow9VkUD_LiUo5z6gLLRpPdg1BFYcc0MMnOieS1SLXZCbXhL1BpUWD8nrD-n93OIXPOYiMxyVo5eOBiXnBbU5ibGaeOuysifqDbHR9-rBOOm8RO0TURtLG9zfC7lrycrgxIfpc0CZo9OuG0FfblKaNaHO4tcG7hbyhb8jwCEp6-DLEkuh5BHmxZj42/s320/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Apr%2017%202022.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhvbaVSmDXVhMblVUGJQdxBkaHT52v1a9amv7T-EtRrqWuI7rFkRBAdh836lKzjTnGIARMzd4TT6u0_Cniu9rCwNDfTtb7NXDGpTEWH4U-19AMJF7oqMjIQLRK0n9mzGpa15qnBLNpHozKOg2zQJ9MXCx8P6Ltq69d4_DEsrxMKdmL1Cm8XQDJn-Bac/s1275/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20July%2017%202022.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1275" data-original-width="1247" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhvbaVSmDXVhMblVUGJQdxBkaHT52v1a9amv7T-EtRrqWuI7rFkRBAdh836lKzjTnGIARMzd4TT6u0_Cniu9rCwNDfTtb7NXDGpTEWH4U-19AMJF7oqMjIQLRK0n9mzGpa15qnBLNpHozKOg2zQJ9MXCx8P6Ltq69d4_DEsrxMKdmL1Cm8XQDJn-Bac/s320/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20July%2017%202022.jpg" width="313" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEix0RmEbCnwdPqo6CrOy2eOscI5unvU4WmmnQFmZVLI12Rh6FjJEpJne70qutaROm6HhC8ybgwyxT_eBXyWzPWHblc00dw0_2KTwgfwFYLWm46tVa0cEKAuWx_L1QwH4RTfoS6iIfV3W6ATmEPZFOc_r0FiTyHOINnPuYparZPml06ep2daxFnYZWDB/s1265/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Mar%2020%202022.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1263" data-original-width="1265" height="319" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEix0RmEbCnwdPqo6CrOy2eOscI5unvU4WmmnQFmZVLI12Rh6FjJEpJne70qutaROm6HhC8ybgwyxT_eBXyWzPWHblc00dw0_2KTwgfwFYLWm46tVa0cEKAuWx_L1QwH4RTfoS6iIfV3W6ATmEPZFOc_r0FiTyHOINnPuYparZPml06ep2daxFnYZWDB/s320/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Mar%2020%202022.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgMvw44xGsvfWZcFxN_43cYt20w5nhuiCu7kixD39BJwEIDG4SRbnCSy50swDgESC_9T6k_Syo0IJ4_czq6OR-7WjWCOnAz2eAF4G0JQimkaDFWDKozVvjFUGEBorCi6kkvH1SB5pQc47Kq_P2FV8K7ZqDTuHwztzU3L-WdKB2IHa9WFk_pLwrotYHM/s1267/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20May%2015%202022.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1256" data-original-width="1267" height="317" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgMvw44xGsvfWZcFxN_43cYt20w5nhuiCu7kixD39BJwEIDG4SRbnCSy50swDgESC_9T6k_Syo0IJ4_czq6OR-7WjWCOnAz2eAF4G0JQimkaDFWDKozVvjFUGEBorCi6kkvH1SB5pQc47Kq_P2FV8K7ZqDTuHwztzU3L-WdKB2IHa9WFk_pLwrotYHM/s320/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20May%2015%202022.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>Mike has done several shows in the past with Dan Peterson and other Interpreters which anyone can watch or listen to from the <i>Interpreter </i>website.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgropgedihYNbZJLQEf0GG2sH-pESaFB9plrkEb71iHeTGsg0TYSxnyU3ZAZrRR0DER3JTuylhL-TDusE3VSdOVxLvOwDB_q30-R8e2tjc0mlegViR5I9oMyo5E9y276M8AI3Ui6qvxN1etIZWqreDj1b0260Wxq9hH_rhoBhiORNfrfi0aPB3bdLEK/s1226/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Jan%2028%202018-%20with%20Dan.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1088" data-original-width="1226" height="284" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgropgedihYNbZJLQEf0GG2sH-pESaFB9plrkEb71iHeTGsg0TYSxnyU3ZAZrRR0DER3JTuylhL-TDusE3VSdOVxLvOwDB_q30-R8e2tjc0mlegViR5I9oMyo5E9y276M8AI3Ui6qvxN1etIZWqreDj1b0260Wxq9hH_rhoBhiORNfrfi0aPB3bdLEK/s320/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Jan%2028%202018-%20with%20Dan.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjn4BEMAUSUMSD5nJ3ZoW4Nh1xH-PZblMFTmWKjV1pAf-BczVmdX2XMlAkZB7hQLhP2-yliE7_D4BJE95oTpRJKyn8Hzv2qE4H8Uhp8XkNJXcwOYVHTEJKAKmjsZgniXOc22yICRxP2fgkiRSD-c2f-ycTJrt5pZ0fUmV_fpZJjN6R2jBSiV63jtJp3/s1299/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Jun%2020%202019.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1119" data-original-width="1299" height="276" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjn4BEMAUSUMSD5nJ3ZoW4Nh1xH-PZblMFTmWKjV1pAf-BczVmdX2XMlAkZB7hQLhP2-yliE7_D4BJE95oTpRJKyn8Hzv2qE4H8Uhp8XkNJXcwOYVHTEJKAKmjsZgniXOc22yICRxP2fgkiRSD-c2f-ycTJrt5pZ0fUmV_fpZJjN6R2jBSiV63jtJp3/s320/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Jun%2020%202019.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgLF9mYi9DyScPPEOw8OOFXFXX_AR4vClSKDsv1rV6y5Sfh0mGyTBNygtwTxzGWAR7OetlIEDlLobu9rY-ET_jwU_Q_mK_aK_TKzxd1qFS2aDHrrqf7cNbIt_XPCZaecWjfbje8rm74K4YGMgz2etuUNvRW738qvH1j0Q3qpNE7u1eQ_TQn3yM5nXc2/s1289/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Nov%2020%202018.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1124" data-original-width="1289" height="279" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgLF9mYi9DyScPPEOw8OOFXFXX_AR4vClSKDsv1rV6y5Sfh0mGyTBNygtwTxzGWAR7OetlIEDlLobu9rY-ET_jwU_Q_mK_aK_TKzxd1qFS2aDHrrqf7cNbIt_XPCZaecWjfbje8rm74K4YGMgz2etuUNvRW738qvH1j0Q3qpNE7u1eQ_TQn3yM5nXc2/s320/Interpreters%20-%20Mike%20Parker%20Nov%2020%202018.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>The only question remaining is how many of the current Interpreters appreciate being tainted by Peter Pan enough to continue with the organization and its tactics?</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-17141242416205274092023-04-20T07:31:00.000-07:002023-04-20T07:31:01.910-07:00Rotten apples<p>Most of the people who work at and contribute to the Interpreter Foundation are serious, respectable, faithful, and diligent scholars. They've made useful contributions to Latter-day Saint scholarship, offered new insights, and provoked thoughtful consideration of important issues. They have earned our respect and gratitude for their work.</p><p>Plus, they're nice people (so long as you don't disagree with them in any substantial way.*)</p><p>But as the saying goes, a rotten apple spoils the barrel. </p><p>In the "Peter Pan" saga, we have a few "interpreters" who adopted and promoted a false, racist pseudonym that they published in their own journal, as discussed here:</p><p><a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2023/04/clown-world-m2c-citation-cartel-and.html" target="_blank">https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2023/04/clown-world-m2c-citation-cartel-and.html</a></p><p>In a series of upcoming posts, we'll discuss these "interpreters" in more detail.</p><p>_____</p><p>*Their intolerance of alternative perspectives may be an inevitable result of them working under the rubric of "Interpreter." As "interpreters," they have a congealed worldview, built on their internally derived consensus, that they seem obsessed with defending at all costs. </p><p>Why honorable scholars choose to identify as "interpreters" this way remains a bit perplexing. First, they ripped the name right out of the scriptures and applied it to themselves as self-appointed "interpreters" of scripture and doctrine for those of us who don't qualify as part of their credentialed class. Then they adopted an editorial bias focused on persuading people that Joseph Smith never used the <i>actual </i>interpreters (the Urim and Thummim) but instead relied on SITH (the stone-in-the-hat), as demonstrated in the journal and in the movie "Witnesses." </p><p>There could not possibly be a more arrogant and offensive name for a group of scholars than "Interpreter," with the possible exception of Pharisee and Sadducee, people who likewise assumed the role of "interpreters" for their respective followers. </p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-85666910999830617582023-04-18T09:00:00.001-07:002023-04-18T09:00:00.149-07:00Why Interpreters are so sure of themselves<p><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;">“It's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves.”</span><br style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" /><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;">—Franz Kafka, “The Trial”</span></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-74211050602669518822023-04-17T09:47:00.000-07:002023-04-17T09:47:55.190-07:00Peter Pan and the Interpreters<p>I posted an update on the latest shenanigans from the <i>Interpreter </i>crowd here:</p><p><a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2023/04/clown-world-m2c-citation-cartel-and.html" target="_blank">https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2023/04/clown-world-m2c-citation-cartel-and.html</a></p><p>The only reason this latest escapade is in the news is because Dan Peterson promoted it for years. Without his efforts, the ridiculous website and "Peter Pan" persona would have faded into obscurity long ago.</p><p>Good work, Dan. I'm sure your followers and donors are proud.</p><p>The remaining question is, how many of your fellow "Interpreters" are also proud of your work here?</p><p>More coming.</p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-6576707564960114172023-03-30T12:44:00.000-07:002023-03-30T12:44:27.337-07:00Peter Pan and Slander DanRecently during the Q&A after a podcast, a viewer asked if I could have lunch with and be friends with Mike Parker. I don't know Mike Parker; at least, I don't remember ever meeting him. Apparently he claims to be the real person behind the "Peter Pan" pseudonym who writes the blog that Dan Peterson (aka, Slander Dan and Dan the Interpreter) has been touting for years. I have no idea whether Mike Parker is the "real" Peter Pan, nor does that matter, because it is Slander Dan who promotes the blog. Without Slander Dan behind it, no one would know or care about the blog. More on Dan below.*<div><br /></div><div><div>Back to the blog that, in good Slander Dan fashion, features my last name in its title. Debates about issues can be productive and useful, and I welcome them. But we've seen for years that Dan and other M2C citation cartel members get easily offended and lash out with ad hominem and other logical fallacies that undermine the credibility and usefulness of whatever valuable material they offer. This has puzzled me for a long time, but now Peter Pan unveiled their rationale, as we'll see below.</div><div><br /></div><div>Back again to the blog. Some time ago someone sent me a link to it. I clicked on it and read an article that was so ridiculous that it was no wonder the author used a pseudonym. </div><div><br /></div><div>One thing for sure: the author chose an appropriate name: Peter Pan, the boy who never grows up, as the theme song explains:</div><div><br /></div><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">I won't grow up.</span><br style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">----I wont grow up</span><br style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">I will never even try</span><br style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">----I will never even try</span><br style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">I will do what Peter tells me</span><br style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">----I will do what Peter tells me</span><br style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">And I'll never ask him why</span><br style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">----And I'll never ask him why</span></div><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nydUgAr3xek" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nydUgAr3xek</a>.</div><div><br /></div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhlOdzp-GfA1p5I5cBPCSw42S7eTNfKP7cQ2Xpuv2CzmRseH9QHaMcEz-r9FvTE7WoE4AbIpb9DPVhKCwmPBeMAIx8WzPR4n5wqDJWP0B3_DUlgToOwUnfJ4X2NFFbYcNEF4d8oG-LY5kPqG1SyzInt1oVVFIL9zvF8AN_5UfaAOF4e9n2BBo3AsrFB/s623/Peter%20Pan%20and%20the%20Interpreters.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="597" data-original-width="623" height="307" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhlOdzp-GfA1p5I5cBPCSw42S7eTNfKP7cQ2Xpuv2CzmRseH9QHaMcEz-r9FvTE7WoE4AbIpb9DPVhKCwmPBeMAIx8WzPR4n5wqDJWP0B3_DUlgToOwUnfJ4X2NFFbYcNEF4d8oG-LY5kPqG1SyzInt1oVVFIL9zvF8AN_5UfaAOF4e9n2BBo3AsrFB/s320/Peter%20Pan%20and%20the%20Interpreters.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Peter Pan and the Interpreters</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><div>The rants on the blog post I read were childish and snarky, consistent with the reputation Slander Dan has accumulated during his career. I figured it was either Dan himself, or one of his admirers/fans, who was writing under the pseudonym.</div><div><div><br /></div><div>But now Mike Parker claims to be the author.</div><div><br /></div><div>Which is fine. Whether or not he's the actual author, I'd be happy to meet Mike for lunch, or have a conversation, or be friends, or whatever. If nothing else, I'm curious about his thought process. </div><div><br /></div><div>That leads into this quotation someone sent me from Peter Pan's unveiling:</div><div><br /></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Jonathan Neville has set forth specific propositions that are at odds with the historical record, at odds with what has been taught by leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and at odds with careful analysis of the data. He’s free to believe whatever he wants to believe, but when he publicly advocates for his beliefs, then he opens himself up to review, criticism, and rebuttal.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="text-align: left;"><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">I believe that his teachings will destroy faith and confidence in The Church of Jesus Christ and its divinely ordained leaders. As I wrote above, I’m sure that Jonathan Neville is a nice person, but his words are spiritually toxic. The [ ] blog exists to expose and examine his teachings and the erroneous statements of others in the Heartland movement.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><br /></div><div>I assume this is representative or typical of Mike's work. That would explain why Slander Dan likes it so much. </div></div><div><br /></div><div>Let's go through this.</div><div><br /></div><div>What are the "specific propositions" I have set forth?</div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div style="text-align: left;"><br /></div></blockquote><div>Anyone who has read my books or heard me speak knows that I disagree with the citation cartel because, unlike them, I still believe what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. </div><div><br /></div><div>That's it.</div><div><br /></div><div>Nothing I've said contradicts the teachings of Church leaders, all of whom I fully support, both past and present. (After all, I'm currently a Pathway missionary, I teach two Institute classes online, and I'm first counselor in our Bishopric.) </div><div><br /></div><div>People can disagree about the <i>interpretation </i>of historical sources, but the sources themselves are objective facts.</div><div><br /></div><div>This table summarizes our different approaches. I'm interested in corroborating the teachings of the prophets; Mike and his fellow scholars seek to repudiate those teachings.</div><div><br /></div><div><table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184;">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">Me<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="border-left: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">Dan Peterson, Mike Parker, Steve Smoot, Jack Welch, Brant Gardner, Royal
Skousen, and their followers and donors<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Joseph Smith
and Oliver Cowdery <b>told the truth</b> about the Hill Cumorah in New York.
Extrinsic evidence corroborates their teachings.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Joseph Smith
and Oliver Cowdery <b>did not tell the truth</b> about the Hill Cumorah and
the translation of the Book of Mormon. Oliver Cowdery invented the New York
Cumorah, but he was speculating and was wrong. Joseph Smith passively adopted
Oliver’s false theory about Cumorah. <o:p></o:p></p>
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</tr>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Their faithful
contemporaries and successors in Church leadership <b>reaffirmed the truth</b>
about Cumorah in New York, including members of the First Presidency speaking
in General Conference.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Their faithful
contemporaries and successors in Church leadership, like Joseph Smith, <b>passively
adopted Oliver Cowdery’s false theory</b> about Cumorah and thereby misled
everyone for decades until the scholars found the truth.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><u>Origin of
M2C.</u> Scholars starting with RLDS scholars Stebbins and Hills, and
continuing with LDS scholars Sorenson, Welch, Peterson, et al, decided JS, OC
and their successors were wrong about Cumorah. Instead, these scholars
determined that the real Cumorah is somewhere in southern Mexico
(Mesoamerica). Hence the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory, or M2C, which
repudiates the teachings of the prophets about Cumorah. M2C is merely the
speculation of intellectuals.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><u>Origin of
M2C.</u> Scholars starting with RLDS scholars Stebbins and Hills, and
continuing with LDS scholars Sorenson, Welch, Peterson, et al, decided JS, OC
and their successors were wrong about Cumorah. Instead, these scholars
determined that the real Cumorah is somewhere in southern Mexico
(Mesoamerica). Hence the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory, or M2C, which
repudiates the mere false speculation of the prophets about Cumorah. M2C is the
truth that must be defended against those who still believe the teachings of
the prophets.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Joseph Smith
and Oliver Cowdery both <b>told the truth</b> about the translation of the
Book of Mormon; i.e., that Joseph translated the plates with the Urim and
Thummim that came with the plates.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Joseph Smith
and Oliver Cowdery both <b>intentionally misled everyone</b> about the
translation because in fact, Joseph never used the plates or the Urim and
Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon (at least the text we have today). <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Witnesses who
rejected the leadership of Brigham Young, such as David Whitmer and Emma
Smith, are <b>less credible</b> than what Joseph and Oliver (and their
successors) said, so even if Joseph Smith dictated words while looking at the
stone in the hat (SITH), this was a demonstration, not the translation of the
Book of Mormon.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Witnesses who
rejected the leadership of Brigham Young, such as David Whitmer and Emma
Smith, are <b>more credible</b> than what Joseph and Oliver (and their
successors) said, so we know that, instead of using the U&T and the
plates, Joseph Smith merely read words that appeared on the stone in the hat
(SITH).<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table></div><div><br /></div><p>Summary of the table:</p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgLRLfFfy5y9l5UoUisF4x5IDg4rg5DkWe5PdxBEWu6VVGfmMvMgFHNEWZEjrtxBff8v3Dr21Tf47xPylXeAlEduxiTFgwVV4_hpq3OSfvB6g4-2jmlExx0anykcEyaKyAVeL8BwCM8ThMIODS8bTQ5nK1SvTTe0g6hNAIFsAwZzSNDUDQ9gt0NWXrt/s1475/Two%20paths%20M2C%20and%20NY.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1108" data-original-width="1475" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgLRLfFfy5y9l5UoUisF4x5IDg4rg5DkWe5PdxBEWu6VVGfmMvMgFHNEWZEjrtxBff8v3Dr21Tf47xPylXeAlEduxiTFgwVV4_hpq3OSfvB6g4-2jmlExx0anykcEyaKyAVeL8BwCM8ThMIODS8bTQ5nK1SvTTe0g6hNAIFsAwZzSNDUDQ9gt0NWXrt/s320/Two%20paths%20M2C%20and%20NY.png" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">click to enlarge</td></tr></tbody></table><br /></p><p>Back to Mike's post.</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">He’s free to believe whatever he wants to believe, but when he publicly advocates for his beliefs, then he opens himself up to review, criticism, and rebuttal.</span></p></blockquote><div>Hence the Peter Pan persona, the blog, and all the rest. </div><div><br /></div><div>I'm fine with "review, criticism, and rebuttal," so long as it is honest and clear. However, the citation cartel, as Mike's post quoted above shows, continues to obscure the main point that of disagreement.</div><div><br /></div><div><b>I still believe what Joseph and Oliver taught. They don't.</b></div><div><br /></div><div>We all look at the same historical sources. Everyone who reads my work can see which sources I consider more credible than others, and that's a fair conversation to have. </div><div><br /></div><div>But creating and promoting an ad hominem blog that misrepresents my views is not a serious way to engage the topics. It's simply childish, worthy of the name Peter Pan. </div><div><br /></div><div>I've long said I'd be happy to meet in person, do a presentation at a FAIRLDS conference, or a podcast with the Interpreter, or write articles, or do peer reviews, or engage in any other way. Instead, the citation cartel has outright refused. They prefer the sniper attacks and misdirection from an anonymous blog. (Ironically, Dan the Interpreter frequently complains about anonymous bloggers.)</div><div><br /></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">I believe that his teachings will destroy faith and confidence in The Church of Jesus Christ and its divinely ordained leaders</span><span style="color: #2b00fe;">. </span></div></blockquote><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div>This is pure Newspeak (War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength). </div><div><br /></div><div>Whereas I seek to corroborate, support and sustain the teachings of the prophets, past and present, Mike and his friends specifically and deliberately seek to persuade Latter-day Saints (and others) that Joseph and Oliver misled everyone about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. They further claim that every subsequent Church leader who has reaffirmed what Joseph and Oliver taught also misled the Church by expressing false personal opinions.</div><div><br /></div><div>We can all see the impact of the citation cartel with their M2C and SITH theories.</div><div><br /></div><div>After decades of rapid growth, the rise of the M2C and SITH theories has led to a decline in faith, conversions, and activity, as the data shows us.</div><div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1T1ed8IFuTK9UMltPrewyqX4NzyNW74UNmmRRHXYwlWxa_tqAO2t3G_m2LiOhzz0Ka49wWw-_emSvEUXFrQiDjLRsdNHv1eYOd97vIc4VFgvgfnjUPlXhm7d6xLLm4lg4wQ5FkfElj8cUF51jTxOQF0oYAlxCpu4LtG_C5AaG98yE7tZgPtQYkWPr/s1894/Faith%20Crisis%20report%20p%2031%20table%20enlarged.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="877" data-original-width="1894" height="185" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1T1ed8IFuTK9UMltPrewyqX4NzyNW74UNmmRRHXYwlWxa_tqAO2t3G_m2LiOhzz0Ka49wWw-_emSvEUXFrQiDjLRsdNHv1eYOd97vIc4VFgvgfnjUPlXhm7d6xLLm4lg4wQ5FkfElj8cUF51jTxOQF0oYAlxCpu4LtG_C5AaG98yE7tZgPtQYkWPr/w400-h185/Faith%20Crisis%20report%20p%2031%20table%20enlarged.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">click to enlarge</td></tr></tbody></table><br /></div><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgTLg6fE9Z3LAWgrqAL53cKMgSrZI3PmHbhCUN4rDjp5qC5CVE7oYfecF-ET9QfNam4UC6_B6Z7VV2axG2QncHfnhHCB_FofCEdtf-Gx9DH2CMPJ6Oh8LuxGIn5laQfE9ioGWlDSgYz-xnggvJQCrJ2QrF5Es0RrG7jXA0q85MB2st1-grQIrHB8iIS/s1280/Slide2.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="720" data-original-width="1280" height="225" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgTLg6fE9Z3LAWgrqAL53cKMgSrZI3PmHbhCUN4rDjp5qC5CVE7oYfecF-ET9QfNam4UC6_B6Z7VV2axG2QncHfnhHCB_FofCEdtf-Gx9DH2CMPJ6Oh8LuxGIn5laQfE9ioGWlDSgYz-xnggvJQCrJ2QrF5Es0RrG7jXA0q85MB2st1-grQIrHB8iIS/w400-h225/Slide2.JPG" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">click to enlarge</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><div>Given that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, it should hardly seem surprising that repudiating the foundation built by Joseph and Oliver regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon has a deleterious impact. </div><div><br /></div><div>Yet Peter Pan, Slander Dan, and their like-minded followers (and donors) continue to double-down on their destructive approach.</div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">As I wrote above, I’m sure that Jonathan Neville is a nice person, but his words are spiritually toxic. The [ ] blog exists to expose and examine his teachings and the erroneous statements of others in the Heartland movement.</span></div></blockquote><div><br /></div><div>He's right about one thing. I am a nice person.</div><div><br /></div><div>:)</div><div><br /></div><div>Plus, I encourage people to make their own decisions. I offer my interpretations of the facts, which for me and many others are uplifting and useful for building and affirming faith, but I'm also fine with alternatives, including M2C if people want to believe that; i.e., multiple working hypotheses.</div><div><br /></div><div>"Spiritually toxic" is a fascinating term. The only thing my work is toxic to is the teachings of the scholars who have repudiated what Joseph and Oliver taught. </div><div><br /></div><div>There is hardly any need to "expose" (pejorative term) my "teachings" (as if I had any teachings). I'm perfectly open in my blogs, books, interviews, and presentations.</div><div><br /></div><div>The only way Peter Pan can dupe his readers is by mischaracterizing what I've said and written, with the eager encouragement of Slander Dan.</div><div><br /></div><div>Whether or not Mike Parker is Peter Pan, and whether or not he sheds the pseudonym, everyone can see for themselves the childish tactics of the citation cartel. </div><div><br /></div><div>But sure. Let's do lunch.</div><div><br /></div><div>You know how to contact me.</div><div><br /></div><div>_____</div><div><br /></div><div>*Back when the Maxwell Institute kicked Dan out of FARMS, some of us thought Dan might modify his behavior and become a legitimate apologist. Instead, he took the spirits that followed him and started the <i>Interpreter</i>, an astonishingly arrogant name. There is no more priestcrafty term for an organization than claiming to be the "Interpreters." Co-opting that scriptural term was an unambiguous declaration by Dan and his followers about their stated intentions, which they've fulfilled ever since. It's amazing that any serious (or gospel) scholars participate under such a rubric. </div><div><br /></div><br />jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-55126096721532258902023-03-20T12:40:00.004-07:002023-03-20T12:40:48.709-07:00Monday Meme<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">Click to enlarge</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhO55ia5xRYb5O2eCk6bEmH-sjXdL3SdzDaOqSHTKLaARqUX3mOj4mdFbpJWts2rLm99BD_6hce76Fg21YiGgU2oAGnkYPLXSZ4WcJK3lBAcaZfBCMLTaLry3zb_rKAcHOYTf90mus8RAQk6oOdDE3FXmSgTZCiPlxpQGTAb44bN8OcIIvYGFnVLgjB/s1572/Cumorah-U&T%20vs%20Interpreter%20comp.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1572" data-original-width="1284" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhO55ia5xRYb5O2eCk6bEmH-sjXdL3SdzDaOqSHTKLaARqUX3mOj4mdFbpJWts2rLm99BD_6hce76Fg21YiGgU2oAGnkYPLXSZ4WcJK3lBAcaZfBCMLTaLry3zb_rKAcHOYTf90mus8RAQk6oOdDE3FXmSgTZCiPlxpQGTAb44bN8OcIIvYGFnVLgjB/w326-h400/Cumorah-U&T%20vs%20Interpreter%20comp.jpg" width="326" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-56510468229605027962023-03-17T15:10:00.002-07:002023-03-17T15:10:50.524-07:00Dan and M2C rationalization<p>Some people, including my critics, forget that I, too, fell for the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs (M2C) theory for decades. I read all the stuff from FARMS, attended the conferences, etc. I trusted Jack Welch, John Sorenson, Dan Peterson, et al. At one time, I actually thought "two Cumorahs" made sense.</p><p>That's why I don't blame my critics for their opposition to the New York Cumorah and all that entails (although their animosity is less excusable...).</p><p>Eventually, I realized I had accepted M2C by default. I had fallen for M2C because the M2Cers never disclosed all the relevant information from Church history and the extrinsic evidence that corroborates the teachings of the prophets about the new York Cumorah. They were (and are still) more obsessed with proving M2C than with pursuing the truth.</p><p>Lately, the M2Cers keep posting the same "facts" about Mesoamerica that we've all seen for decades. While it's true that repetition can make ideas seem more plausible, it doesn't work on people who are well informed.</p><p>I used to think that scholars, like everyone else, sought to make (and help others make) informed decisions. My interactions with M2Cers (and SITH sayers) has shown me otherwise.</p><p>To be clear for the umpteenth time, I'm fine with people believing M2C if they want to. It doesn't matter to me in the least. Lots of people choose to repudiate the teachings of the prophets because of their personal ideas, values, preferences, and programming, so why should the M2Cers be any different? My problem is with the way they enforce M2C through misinformation and censorship.</p><p>_____</p><p>Now Dan Peterson ( the self-appointed "Interpreter" aka Slander Dan) is trying to justify his decades of promoting M2C. And that's fine. People can believe whatever they want, and it's helpful to see how they think.</p><p>In doing so, he offers yet another example of the way he "interprets" reality to rationalize the things he teaches. </p><p>Dan, <a href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2023/03/big-news-from-a-small-country.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=BRSS&utm_campaign=Latter-day+Saint&utm_content=366" target="_blank">writing from Israel</a> (as if that matters) explains that the Bible is a limited geography, so John Sorenson was justified in claiming the Book of Mormon must be in the limited area of Mesoamerica.</p><p>It's an obvious non sequitur, but let's indulge his point for a moment.</p><p>Dan states, <span style="color: #2b00fe;">"Most of the stories of the Old Testament and the New Testament, after all, take place within a strikingly small area between Dan in the north and Be’er-Sheva (Beersheba), about 136 miles to the south, from the Great Sea (the Mediterranean) to the River Jordan. Israel is, as I can promise you from actual personal acquaintance with it, a rather tiny country. At its widest, it’s only about seventy-one miles across."</span></p><p>Notice first that Dan's "promise... from actual personal acquaintance" is a nonsense argument. Such a "promise" is condescending and serves no purpose other than to convey a faux aura of authority, as if by writing from Israel he has some relevant insight, making him and his "promise" a credible "Interpreter" for the rest of us. </p><p>Those of us who have visited Israel (like other Latter-day Saints, I've visited Israel many times, along with Egypt, Jordan, Oman, Lebanon, Turkey, Greece, and Italy) know that being there is useful for lots of reasons, but <i>not </i>for assessing the geographic reach of scripture. Whether you have visited in person or not, you can still read a map. </p><p>And you can read the Bible.</p><p>Contrary to what Dan the Interpreter wants his readers to believe, the Bible involves far more territory than the State of Israel. Ancient people were able to travel, and they <i>did </i>travel. </p><p>In the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible.</p><p>While Dan qualified his claim by vaguely saying "most of the stories" take place within Israel, the M2C theory he promotes puts all of the events of the Book of Mormon in the promised land in the limited area of Mesoamerica. </p><p>Two maps from the Gospel Library inform us that the scope of the Bible is far greater than what Dan tries to persuade his followers to believe.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgLP8cVaDiZm3lvY_JVa2rOoBfG9hxpJtJmgw675GG75mZMYROhV-nPjUGxwjEzMk4u3yxPHc2PEgCaEc2f5ppJ9UMkyYirnLat2ZsQclPLenDTRo53Mk4arAOZtoYDsCRc26FOkoej8Ab11Jtj59hOsE2ij3UCXLhcgZ_vitIadtmW_qI-K297UngA/s636/bible_map%20-%20New%20testament.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="454" data-original-width="636" height="228" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgLP8cVaDiZm3lvY_JVa2rOoBfG9hxpJtJmgw675GG75mZMYROhV-nPjUGxwjEzMk4u3yxPHc2PEgCaEc2f5ppJ9UMkyYirnLat2ZsQclPLenDTRo53Mk4arAOZtoYDsCRc26FOkoej8Ab11Jtj59hOsE2ij3UCXLhcgZ_vitIadtmW_qI-K297UngA/s320/bible_map%20-%20New%20testament.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjqIrKSl5OpDqDxbzwnJdjJvMJPpasMzkYfDcgsPx2F6asLlxY7c-K_Og93NW_Ygy0ecYcxzPHuuSyZxD5lnKY5ofMz7UuGxawiC47ehS1_r6T4QKHjyh76Woe5Y9MUBiCCO_WjjAq-5m4mwkJiypvdWDPpHQlOye8VNGVt9VG135MbHXg9w94v-zAP/s792/bible_map%20-%20Old%20testament.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="566" data-original-width="792" height="229" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjqIrKSl5OpDqDxbzwnJdjJvMJPpasMzkYfDcgsPx2F6asLlxY7c-K_Og93NW_Ygy0ecYcxzPHuuSyZxD5lnKY5ofMz7UuGxawiC47ehS1_r6T4QKHjyh76Woe5Y9MUBiCCO_WjjAq-5m4mwkJiypvdWDPpHQlOye8VNGVt9VG135MbHXg9w94v-zAP/s320/bible_map%20-%20Old%20testament.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>Now, compare the two realities. The purple area is what Dan the Interpreter dupes his followers into thinking by simply omitting relevant biblical information because it doesn't fit his narrative. The red area is what the Bible itself explains.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjbjupMaPjYW0ksLKGvymTkp-6x5LYJcoTEGsA2ENUQch5XIJnGmBiGWNIULJ1LQYb73BB4Z-3tLwnxvWfDrbcvKXaTwAeKLNs8271ETR9aH4pAiwUP1LSQG0LQZFZFiwnDc9mydFK7gZNdd0S7p6kbE_3zhBbR-0aHAkBECdac9sQ3o9-SJ9JXsBWp/s833/Area%20of%20the%20Bible-full%20and%20partial.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="589" data-original-width="833" height="226" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjbjupMaPjYW0ksLKGvymTkp-6x5LYJcoTEGsA2ENUQch5XIJnGmBiGWNIULJ1LQYb73BB4Z-3tLwnxvWfDrbcvKXaTwAeKLNs8271ETR9aH4pAiwUP1LSQG0LQZFZFiwnDc9mydFK7gZNdd0S7p6kbE_3zhBbR-0aHAkBECdac9sQ3o9-SJ9JXsBWp/s320/Area%20of%20the%20Bible-full%20and%20partial.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>In the New World, we have a similar comparison. The purple area is what our M2C friends want everyone to believe is the setting for the Book of Mormon. The red area is what so-called Heartlanders generally think.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjPNZmYfljcKO0WKufhaftttHCLlgnBMOYAXIWDPhIrjOUxJUWF4GJcvq8FtiF9bUfqJ-bb-qFL9i9nul-Yggvb-iKbSmO9gma9rAVF98npD1Miw2c4VwZelA60LLaMU-ziYSlUMzD53G9T-L_YrXItTrFiiVD0fSyTjZ_B-ey4RZLZ4cabqQHddS5k/s884/Area%20of%20the%20BofM-full%20and%20partial.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="629" data-original-width="884" height="228" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjPNZmYfljcKO0WKufhaftttHCLlgnBMOYAXIWDPhIrjOUxJUWF4GJcvq8FtiF9bUfqJ-bb-qFL9i9nul-Yggvb-iKbSmO9gma9rAVF98npD1Miw2c4VwZelA60LLaMU-ziYSlUMzD53G9T-L_YrXItTrFiiVD0fSyTjZ_B-ey4RZLZ4cabqQHddS5k/s320/Area%20of%20the%20BofM-full%20and%20partial.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>Many readers of the Book of Mormon find it difficult to believe that a civilization that started by crossing the Arabian peninsula and then the ocean would stick within a small area of Mesoamerica for 1,000 years. Those same readers wonder why the text never mentions volcanoes, pyramids, or the 3 Js: jade, jaguars, and jungles. </p><p>The M2Cers have answers for all of this, of course, but they use the same logical fallacies as Dan did in his discussion of the limited geography of Israel. They omit relevant information, retranslate the text (replacing <i>horses </i>with <i>tapirs</i>) and find "correspondences" with Mayan culture that are attributes of most human societies everywhere. </p><p>All in an effort to persuade Latter-day Saints that the prophets were wrong about Cumorah.</p><p>Although I have had many discussions with M2Cers over the years</p><p>_____</p><p>This topic reminds me that we've discussed before the irrationality of M2Cers looking in the Americas in the first place. I've asked them why they limit their analysis to the Americas. The conversation goes like this.</p><p>Me: You claim you rely on the text above all else when it comes to geography. </p><p>M2Cers: Correct.</p><p>Me: Why are you looking in the western hemisphere for Book of Mormon events? The text never mentions America, western hemisphere, or any other modern term for geography. The events could have taken place anywhere in the world.</p><p>M2Cers: Well, in this case we look beyond the text. We look at what the prophets have taught. </p><p>Me: Which prophets?</p><p>M2Cers: All of them, starting with Joseph Smith.</p><p>Me: When <a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/68" target="_blank">Moroni visited Joseph</a>, he "gave a general account of the promises made to the fathers, and also gave a history of the aborigenes of this country."</p><p>M2Cers: We don't believe that part because Moroni really meant Mesoamerica. Joseph misunderstood, or else Moroni mean "hemisphere" when he said "country."</p><p>Me: <a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/69" target="_blank">Moroni </a>"said this history was written and deposited not far from that place," referring to Joseph's home near Palmyra.</p><p>M2Cers: We don't believe that part, either. Joseph must have misunderstood because we know that Mormon and Moroni wrote their record in Mesoamerica, not western New York.</p><p>Me: How about when <a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/69" target="_blank">Moroni said</a> "that it was our brother’s privilege, if obedient to the commandments of the Lord, to obtain and translate the same by the means of the Urim and Thummim, which were deposited for that purpose with the record."</p><p>M2Cers: Nope. That's false, too. We know Joseph didn't use the Urim and Thummim which were deposited with the record because he used a seer stone he found in a well. He didn't even use the plates, for that matter.</p><p>Me: You know I could go on with more examples.</p><p>M2Cers: Yes, but they're all wrong, because we know Cumorah is not in New York. The prophets have been wrong about that, just like they have been wrong about the translation of the Book of Mormon.</p><p>Me: That's been my point all along. Now, make sure your followers are all crystal clear about your position.</p><p>M2Cers: Never. We're the gatekeepers. Our followers don't need to know what the prophets have taught, just like they don't need to know about the extrinsic evidence that supports and corroborates what the prophets have taught.</p><p>After all, they'll all believe me when I tell them the Bible took place in a small area about the size of Mesoamerica.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-25095446093580716162023-03-16T09:10:00.005-07:002023-03-16T09:12:23.866-07:00Dan and the Interpreter<p><b>Key point: As an optimist, I would like to see the <i>Interpreter </i>change its name and become a serious academic resource that respectfully considers multiple faithful points of view. I don't think that's possible so long as it's under Dan's thumb. </b></p><p><b>_____</b></p><p>The other day on his blog, Dan Peterson (aka Slander Dan) was complaining again. He wrote, "For an unpleasant few days recently, a zealous and pseudonymous advocate of the "Heartland" model for the geography of the Book of Mormon was active in the comments section..."</p><p>This is the same Dan who for years on his same blog has eagerly promoted a blog by "a zealous and pseudonymous advocate" of Dan's theories. The blogger there goes by the name of Tinker Bell, or Peter Pan, or some such. He named his blog using my name, which should be enough of a clue that what he writes is full of logical fallacies.</p><p>One time I looked at that blog and it was so ridiculous that I've ignored it, but sometimes people send me excerpts. The person(s) who writes there chose an apt pseudonym because the arguments and claims are childish and foolish. Delusional, really. That author(s) writes so poorly and angrily that it's no wonder he/they uses a pseudonym. And he's even a contributor to the <i>Interpreter</i>.</p><p>Which is actually not surprising.</p><p>I'd welcome an honest exchange and debate, of course. But not with a pseudonymous fool.</p><p>The question is, why does Dan love his pseudonymous blogger? And, since he endorses pseudonymous bloggers, why does he simultaneously complain about "a zealous and pseudonymous advocate" who apparently challenges Dan's theories?</p><p>The answer is evident in Dan's entire apologetic career.</p><p>I've explained before that I used to respect Dan, back in the day. I used to attend the FARMS conferences, FAIRMormon, etc. He was always a lot of fun. A great guy. </p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjM1Q9nTwxUiWjK5eWlkh-D5fcvxVpANBDlKt2jzu_-l8_u5PsweuVhIAIROzuNmXm6HiShq6Tc691LkdhkUYsavkKswZqScmpy9vDla3QQV26sJ0JYfJJ3c20EREb1jumzykrksLj3XxBC3fjWQTaOAQTJ3fKk6o6xYab487TMJKLAaxVNQNDIjxo-/s298/Slander%20Dan%20at%20FairMormon%202.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="199" data-original-width="298" height="199" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjM1Q9nTwxUiWjK5eWlkh-D5fcvxVpANBDlKt2jzu_-l8_u5PsweuVhIAIROzuNmXm6HiShq6Tc691LkdhkUYsavkKswZqScmpy9vDla3QQV26sJ0JYfJJ3c20EREb1jumzykrksLj3XxBC3fjWQTaOAQTJ3fKk6o6xYab487TMJKLAaxVNQNDIjxo-/s1600/Slander%20Dan%20at%20FairMormon%202.jpg" width="298" /></a></div><br /><p></p><p>Dan was popular then. Apparently he still is, although I can't figure out why. His cantankerous, thin-skinned approach to apologetics was mildly humorous decades ago, but has worn thin with overuse. After all these decades, he still plays the victim. It's tiresome, goofy, and reflects badly on other Latter-day Saints who engage with critics.</p><p>When he was removed from FARMS years ago, I was initially sympathetic with his complaint. But then I saw how he took those who followed him and started his own organization, which he named The Interpreter Foundation. That name distilled Dan's apologetics. He and his followers, as exemplified by the pseudonymous blogger he loves, consider themselves superior to ordinary Latter-day Saints. They think they, as the credentialed class, are entitled to interpret Church history, scriptures, and doctrine for the rest of us. As they've claimed, they've been hired by the Church to guide us in these areas.</p><p>That's all a bunch of nonsense, IMO. </p><p>And then there was the <i>Witnesses </i>movie that promoted SITH to the world....</p><p>To be clear, there are some thoughtful, honorable people working at and contributing to the <i>Interpreter</i>. They put out some good material. Others, not so much. </p><p>Regardless of the original intent, which may have been honorable, the <i>Interpreter </i>has become a strident gatekeeper and enforcer of dogma. That's why I include them in the M2C/SITH citation cartel and that's why I started this blog in the first place.</p><p>True, the <i>Interpreter </i>did publish my response to the two Kraus reviews of two of my latest books, albeit long after the original reviews. A legitimate journal would have published my response with the original reviews. But that's not how the <i>Interpreter </i>operates.</p><p>In writing my response, I complied with the word count and editorial input they gave. Fair enough. But when they published my response, they simultaneously published a rejoinder by Kraus that I hadn't seen. And they didn't let me respond to the rejoinder! </p><p>They said I could post a response as a comment, which of course would not appear in their print version and would be buried in the online version even if they did permit it (and their webmaster screens comments anyway). </p><p>So I posted my response here, where few will see it. </p><p><a href="https://interpreterpeerreviews.blogspot.com/2022/11/my-response-to-kraus-rejoinder.html" target="_blank">https://interpreterpeerreviews.blogspot.com/2022/11/my-response-to-kraus-rejoinder.html</a></p><p>Consequently, readers of the <i>Interpreter </i>will be misinformed again, as usual, thinking I had no response to the Kraus rejoinder.</p><p>The <i>Interpreter </i>is a laughably fake journal, a digital Potemkin village designed to look serious and academic while rejecting the hallmark of actual academic journals: reasonable, considered debate from multiple perspectives. </p><p><b>To repeat: As an optimist, I would like to see the <i>Interpreter </i>change its name and become a serious academic resource that respectfully considers multiple faithful points of view. I don't think that's possible so long as it's under Dan's thumb. </b></p><br /><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-54039337821167722252023-03-09T09:49:00.002-08:002023-03-09T09:49:55.625-08:00Slander Dan, at it again<p>Dan Peterson is awesome. He has spent years earning the nickname Slander Dan and he continues to add to his resume.</p><p>Slander Dan eagerly follows the scriptures, thinking this is an admonition instead of a condemnation: "take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor..." (2 Nephi 28:8)</p><p>Recently on his blog he posted excerpts from a brief Facebook post by Rian Nelson in which Rian described his belief in a conspiracy theory. Rian made the post in response to an accusation from an anonymous person that he was anti-Semitic. Rian foolishly fell for the bait, posted his response, and then removed it. </p><p>But one of Dan's henchmen screen-captured Rian's post and sent it to Dan so Dan could publicize it to the world in an effort to slander all Heartlanders.</p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhvHECTKU83GLAQ6hkyni1W6yAkI_QHRKTscc-qhnZ37vWeracaCh3ZlVjBGRTqNznglaxbuugvEdoZD9tfIeatUrrdPoNlvBx4OkURNFZc738QnZCxW5e1TgqPSbMwGwvgFnnFSngQxq5UQ_VAiqNRv9Y59D4pXlLfrn-asNR_n-WKxdy_5euTvNyU/s298/Slander%20Dan%20at%20FairMormon%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="199" data-original-width="298" height="199" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhvHECTKU83GLAQ6hkyni1W6yAkI_QHRKTscc-qhnZ37vWeracaCh3ZlVjBGRTqNznglaxbuugvEdoZD9tfIeatUrrdPoNlvBx4OkURNFZc738QnZCxW5e1TgqPSbMwGwvgFnnFSngQxq5UQ_VAiqNRv9Y59D4pXlLfrn-asNR_n-WKxdy_5euTvNyU/s1600/Slander%20Dan%20at%20FairMormon%202.jpg" width="298" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Slander Dan speaking at FAIRMormon</td></tr></tbody></table><p>People sent me Dan's post, of course. I hadn't seen Rian's post previously, and hardly anyone else had, either. Like the rest of the world, I would never have known about it if not for Dan's post.</p><p>FWIW, I think Rian's post was dumb. His conspiracy theories are delusional, IMO, and I've told him that many times. But people are complicated, lots of people think crazy things, and normally that doesn't matter because we recognize that none of us is perfect. </p><p>After all, I'm fine with Dan and the rest of the M2C/SITH citation cartel believing and teaching what they teach. I happily associate with people regardless of disagreements about particular issues of religion, politics, science, etc. True, I criticize the citation cartel for their censorship, elitism, and repudiation of the teachings of the prophets, but only because they create obstacles for people to make informed decisions. I've said for years that the nanosecond they embrace full disclosure, comparisons of alternative viewpoints, and serious scholarship I would cease all criticism of their work.</p><p>But Rian's post gave Slander Dan an opening.</p><p>Dan and his cronies and followers are so insecure about their SITH and M2C dogmas, which they cannot defend openly on their merits, that they resort to such a desperate tactic as capturing a momentary Facebook post and publishing it to the world to falsely slander a group of fellow Latter-day Saints.</p><p>Rian, as an individual, is fair game. He can speak for himself.</p><p>But he doesn't represent Heartlanders who are a diverse group of Latter-day Saints who have a common belief in the teachings of the prophets about the New York Cumorah. They have a variety of beliefs/opinions (multiple working hypotheses) about Book of Mormon settings beyond Cumorah, about interpretations of Church and secular history, as well as about politics, science, sociology, music, art, literature, and every other human interest.</p><p>But for Slander Dan, painting them all with Rian's conspiracy theory is just ordinary business.</p><p>He and his followers delight in taking the advantage of one because of his words and digging a pit for their neighbor.</p><p>_____</p><p>Jordan Peterson described this conduct recently.</p><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.03); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-k4xj1c r-18u37iz r-1wtj0ep" style="-webkit-box-align: start; 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flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__rgu6gi9tf9r" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-1ddef8g r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: underline; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Dr Jordan B Peterson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; 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min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-1wvb978 r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: "ss01"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@jordanbpeterson</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="52 minutes ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1633504888951898112" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2023-03-08T16:28:09.000Z">52m</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; 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align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border-radius: 9999px; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; inset: 0px; margin: -8px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: absolute; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: background-color, box-shadow; z-index: 0;"></div><svg aria-hidden="true" class="r-4qtqp9 r-yyyyoo r-1xvli5t r-dnmrzs r-bnwqim r-1plcrui r-lrvibr r-1hdv0qi" viewbox="0 0 24 24"><g><path d="M3 12c0-1.1.9-2 2-2s2 .9 2 2-.9 2-2 2-2-.9-2-2zm9 2c1.1 0 2-.9 2-2s-.9-2-2-2-2 .9-2 2 .9 2 2 2zm7 0c1.1 0 2-.9 2-2s-.9-2-2-2-2 .9-2 2 .9 2 2 2z"></path></g></svg></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.03); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__lz90c8eck0b" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">"It's such hard work extracting bigotry from the words of famous, competent people I want to feel morally superior to..." </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/MonicaHesse" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@MonicaHesse</a></span></div></div></div><div aria-labelledby="id__6j9d7gkckdx id__gtuk6ccanan" class="css-1dbjc4n r-1ssbvtb r-1s2bzr4" id="id__p9mhue9gjzn" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.03); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-size: 15px; gap: 12px; margin: 12px 0px 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" id="id__6j9d7gkckdx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; 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top: 12px; transform: translateX(-50%) translateY(-50%); width: calc(100% - 4px); z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-12181gd r-1pi2tsx r-1ny4l3l r-13qz1uu" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.03) 0px 0px 2px inset; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; width: 20px; z-index: 0;"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Monica Hesse</span><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-1pos5eu r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; 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max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-1wvb978 r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: "ss01"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@MonicaHesse</span></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-label="Mar 6" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2023-03-06T14:08:10.000Z">Mar 6</time></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-6gpygo r-1fz3rvf" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 12px 12px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-14gqq1x r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 4px 0px 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Rowling’s tweets are exhausting because they require constant vigilance. They are not screaming out obvious bigotry, rather, they are whispering plausible-deniability bigotry, the kind that purports to be just asking questions. </span><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" dir="ltr" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><span aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-hiw28u r-qvk6io r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font-family: inherit; font-size: 0px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: 0px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">https://</span>washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2023<span aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-hiw28u r-qvk6io r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" color="inherit" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font-family: inherit; font-size: 0px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: 0px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">/03/06/witch-trials-jk-rowling-podcast-hesse-column/</span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-24490870065300823312023-03-02T09:03:00.000-08:002023-03-09T10:17:28.449-08:00Dan's apologetics 2021<p>From time to time, people send me some of Dan's posts.</p><p>For a good example of Dan's apologetics, see the comments to his post here:</p><p><a href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360" target="_blank">https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360</a></p><p>Dan cites John Clark's M2C theories, condescends to the other comments, and declines to answer questions because the commentors haven't read the voluminous works Dan has.</p><p>Louis Midgley's even worse comments make Dan look only slightly less ridiculous by comparison.</p><div class="post-content" data-role="post-content" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin-bottom: 24px; outline: 0px; position: relative; transition: all 0.2s ease-in-out 0s;" tabindex="0"><div class="post-body" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden;"><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 1007.27px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Let's hear it for the pilot.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Chapstick</a></span> </span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5322823460" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323404295" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 3:02 PM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 935.278px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Gemli, “Let's hear it for the pilot.”</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">The passengers can all be thankful for the pilot’s training, experience and education which saved the day. It’s a good thing the pilot wasn’t busy praying because I guarantee that god wasn’t going to land that plane.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I wonder why that “woman” was so hysterical? Chances are very good she was LDS. Aren’t LDS less fearful of death because they have a sure knowledge of the afterlife? When the rubber hit the road, hysterical woman obviously didn’t take much comfort in the LDS teachings.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">moonshine</a></span> </span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323404295" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Chapstick</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323477613" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:22 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 863.287px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 3:23 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">With practice, maybe Chapstick could too. For example, he could try walking and chewing gum.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-1" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323404295" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Chapstick</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323417999" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 3:24 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 863.287px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">CS:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"It’s a good thing the pilot wasn’t busy praying because I guarantee that god wasn’t going to land that plane."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">And CS imagines that the pilot wasn't praying because CS imagines that <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">he</i> wouldn't have been.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">CS:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"I wonder why that “woman” was so hysterical?"</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Is CS suggesting that she somehow wasn't a <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">real</i> woman?</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">CS:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"When the rubber hit the road, hysterical woman obviously didn’t take much comfort in the LDS teachings."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Good grief, CS. The sheer strain that you're putting yourself through is painful to watch.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Louis Midgley</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="85924079" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" tabindex="0"><span aria-label="Follow" class="follow-user" style="-webkit-mask-image: url("https://c.disquscdn.com/next/embed/assets/img/follow.160e74d77da7f001267b7fc1a8230244.svg"); background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323417999" style="border: 0px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 3:28 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I think it wise for me not to comment on <b style="box-sizing: border-box;">Chapy</b> linking hysteria with woman.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:04 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 863.287px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">It’s a good thing the pilot wasn’t busy praying because I guarantee that god wasn’t going to land that plane.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">For someone who is so adamant about physical evidence, I'm curious how you could possibly back up that spurious claim.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Louis Midgley</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="85924079" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" tabindex="0"><span aria-label="Follow" class="follow-user" style="-webkit-mask-image: url("https://c.disquscdn.com/next/embed/assets/img/follow.160e74d77da7f001267b7fc1a8230244.svg"); background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323440939" style="border: 0px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:40 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">Jacob Ames</b>: <b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli</b> never ever backs up any of his claims with evidences. If <b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli</b> had ever once read Aristotle on the four different kinds of causation, he might be able to see how God can and does meddle in human affairs without actually flying airplanes or navigating ships or building buildings or causing the blind to see, and so forth.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; 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line-height: 1.2; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s; width: 60px; z-index: 100;" target="_blank"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;">G</div></a></div><div class="post-body" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-left: 48px; overflow: hidden;"><header class="comment__header" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 18px; line-height: 1; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-top: 2px; min-height: 20px; padding-right: 80px;"><span class="post-byline" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="author publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-weight: 700;"><a data-action="profile" data-tab="" data-username="gemli" href="https://disqus.com/by/gemli/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">gemli</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="30829022" style="border: 0px; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Louis Midgley</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323691073" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 11:54 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">How would one provide evidence for the nonexistence of anything? Of course it's impossible to do so. Dr. Midgley must know that such a claim must be backed up by evidence that is <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">commensurate with the claim</i>. A claim that a god can and does meddle in human affairs requires a great deal of evidence, both to verify that such a divine being exists, and that the vagaries of human desire and experience cannot be explained by natural means.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Every claim made in history (to take a discipline at random) must be verified. And the more extraordinary the claim, the more proof is required if the claim is to be taken seriously. Given recent political events, it's clear that people in large numbers will believe in the most abject nonsense imaginable, to the point of crawling up the U.S. Capitol building, if they're in the thrall of a charismatic charlatan.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Chapstick</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324051967" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 5:11 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 863.287px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">I wonder why that “woman” was so hysterical? Chances are very good she was LDS. Aren’t LDS less fearful of death because they have a sure knowledge of the afterlife? When the rubber hit the road, hysterical woman obviously didn’t take much comfort in the LDS teachings.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Jeering at someone's fear is just so mature; so praiseworthy; so deserving of all emulation.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Especially coming from someone who doesn't dare to do his online heckling without first carefully hiding his identity. What an outstanding example of moral courage!</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-6" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">tangata neneva</a></span> </span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324051967" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Kiwi57</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324112291" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:00 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">The interesting thing is, I jumped (I know wrongly so) to the opposite conclusion. Considering that:<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />1) In the army I found the non-believers to be the one that struggled with the heat of combat. The believers were always pretty calm.<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />2) 50% of St George residents are not Latter-day Saints (Dixie State U [soon to have a name change]) students and a lot of move ins.<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />3) Utahn's rarely fly to St George. It is an easy drive if you have the time. So maybe the woman was an out of state passenger coming to vacate?</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-3" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> tangata neneva</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324211879" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 7:21 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I'm sure the possibilities are endless. But bigots and demagogues, like the brave dipstick, always rely upon stereotypes.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5322891250" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:12 AM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 935.278px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Yes, indeed.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I'm glad to see you agree with President Nelson about something. It vastly increases your chances of getting something right, for a change.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Tim Ernst</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="346563991" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" tabindex="0"><span aria-label="Follow" class="follow-user" style="-webkit-mask-image: url("https://c.disquscdn.com/next/embed/assets/img/follow.160e74d77da7f001267b7fc1a8230244.svg"); background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5322823460" style="border: 0px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:55 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 935.278px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Haha, right???</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Louis Midgley</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="85924079" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" tabindex="0"><span aria-label="Follow" class="follow-user" style="-webkit-mask-image: url("https://c.disquscdn.com/next/embed/assets/img/follow.160e74d77da7f001267b7fc1a8230244.svg"); background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5322823460" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323005167" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 7:47 AM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 935.278px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Dear dogmatic gemli: Please explain why it makes any real difference to a kind of mere slightly sentient large cockroach as you have been insisting that you are certain that this is all there is to human beings?</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Louis Midgley</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323169358" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 10:19 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 863.287px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">We are not sentient cockroaches, one recent former president notwithstanding. We are slightly more sentient apes, made of the same stuff and behaving in similar ways as the hairier variety. More precise vocal capabilities (due more than likely to our acquiring the <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">foxp2</i> gene) advantaged the evolution of a larger brain capable of communicating with more precision, as well as allowing stories to be told that were not tied to physical reality.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">The fact that there is not a scrap of physical evidence for the stories of actual angels, gods and other "beings," despite the widespread and varied claims of such evidence, indicates that such beings exist only in these stories. The fact that people have imagined a huge variety of supernatural beings and afterlives is not evidence of their existence, but of a common pattern of wishful thinking designed to assuage our fear of death.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Dying is not something we look forward to, but death is a piece of cake. There's literally no way to get it wrong. So theists should relax and not waste time doing the recitations and gyrations designed to get them to the afterlife.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">moonshine</a></span> </span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323169358" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323482951" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:35 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><i style="box-sizing: border-box;">The fact that there is not a scrap of physical evidence for the stories of actual angels, gods and other "beings,"</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">What would actually count as physical evidence to you? The plates?<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />Would you actually give Joseph Smith a single consideration if you handled the gold plates yourself and someone wearing a shiny SCIENCE! badge ran a mystery test and said, "Yep this gold dates from roughly 600 BC?" Or would you find some other way to write him off as a charlatan? <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">Whatever, he got lucky!</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Not a single thing would actually convince you, gemli. You said yourself on this forum that if you DID see a divine manifestation, you'd discount it as hallucinatory or that you had gone crazy.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Have you every actually tried praying? Have you ever offered a sincere, searching prayer in your life? Not a "strike me down if you're real" ploy. Like, talked for real to Him, on the chance He might be real?</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">There's a reason a lot of us are here, saying the things we say. And it's not because we just took someone else's word for it.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-5" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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line-height: 1.2; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s; width: 60px; z-index: 100;" target="_blank"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;">G</div></a></div><div class="post-body" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-left: 48px; overflow: hidden;"><header class="comment__header" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 18px; line-height: 1; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-top: 2px; min-height: 20px; padding-right: 80px;"><span class="post-byline" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="author publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-weight: 700;"><a data-action="profile" data-tab="" data-username="gemli" href="https://disqus.com/by/gemli/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">gemli</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="30829022" style="border: 0px; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> moonshine</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5323729145" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 12:39 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">No sincere believer in any of the scores of discrepant theological claims thinks that their belief is untrue. They can persist in their beliefs because there is no evidence that would certify any of them. Somehow, <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">lack</i> of evidence makes belief far more persistent. Such belief requires commitment, and must be defended, which make people believe all the more fervently.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Yes, neither golden plates nor actual evidence of past civilizations as purportedly described in them ever existed. Neither did Adam and Eve, or a garden, or a snake. There are endless such claims that have nothing to do with actual beings or events, and everything to do with human psychology.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324078263" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 5:32 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"Yes, neither golden plates nor actual evidence of past civilizations as purportedly described in them ever existed."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Considerable evidence indicates otherwise. You refuse even to look at it, though, which renders your opinion on the matter absolutely worthless.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; 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margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">No, there is not considerable credible evidence. If there were, both religious and non-religious people would support their existence.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 10:07 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">No, there is not considerable credible evidence. If there were, both religious and non-religious people would support their existence.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Rubbish. There would always be at least two groups of people who would not.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">1. <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">Those who don't know anything about it</i>. This is by far the largest group in relation to just about any subject. People learn about what interests them, and a great many people don't care about past events, religious artefacts, or both.<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />2. <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">Those who refuse to know anything about it</i>. This is a much smaller group, consisting of the stubbornly ignorant. I'm sure you know at least one person just like that. Someone who made up his mind at a very early age that there just ain't no such thing, not nohow, neither. Someone who is convinced that his 11-year-old self couldn't possibly be wrong, so that anything that might challenge his pre-adolescent prejudices couldn't possibly be right; and therefore, any evidence that suggests that there is anything mistaken or inadequate about those prejudices must be excluded, by any dodge, however desperate.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">But the fact is that there is indeed considerable evidence regarding the existence of the Plates, and <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">all</i> of it is affirmative. You'll never see it, because you're too terrified of it. But others can.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-7" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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font-weight: 700;"><a data-action="profile" data-tab="" data-username="disqus_aerWbsvSe6" href="https://disqus.com/by/disqus_aerWbsvSe6/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Louis Midgley</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="85924079" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" tabindex="0"><span aria-label="Follow" class="follow-user" style="-webkit-mask-image: url("https://c.disquscdn.com/next/embed/assets/img/follow.160e74d77da7f001267b7fc1a8230244.svg"); background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324394121" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Kiwi57</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324419263" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 10:33 AM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I also happen to know one person who refuses to know a thing about the actual beliefs and history of Jewish, Christian and Islamic faith. And who has many, many dozens of times boasted that he does not care to know a thing about the faith of Latter-day Saints. And who constantly demonstrates that he has tried hard to know as little as possible about our faith. Please notice how carefully I avoided mentioning <b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli</b>, who insists that there cannot be evidence, since history is bunk.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; 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overflow: hidden;"><header class="comment__header" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 18px; line-height: 1; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-top: 2px; min-height: 20px; padding-right: 80px;"><span class="post-byline" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="author publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-weight: 700;"><a data-action="profile" data-tab="" data-username="disqus_3rothrIhjF" href="https://disqus.com/by/disqus_3rothrIhjF/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Jack</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="136325058" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" tabindex="0"><span aria-label="Follow" class="follow-user" style="-webkit-mask-image: url("https://c.disquscdn.com/next/embed/assets/img/follow.160e74d77da7f001267b7fc1a8230244.svg"); 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324831249" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 9:05 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Fred, IMO, what we've learned about those ancient civilizations over the years is evidence that the Book of Mormon has always been correct with regard to its portrayal of large complex civilizations existing on this continent in the past. A lot of folks in the early days thought the BoM was quite imaginative on that point--laughable really. But now we can see that it has been vindicated on that particular claim.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">With regard to your second paragraph--I like to imagine archaeologists in the distant future discovering evidence of a very large civilization within the boundaries of the U.S.--and then asking myself: what would they find in the intermountain west that would compel them to believe that an entirely different people and culture existed there as compared to the surrounding areas?</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324490751" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 11:49 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">FK:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">From the Book of Mormon we get other, supposedly large civilizations, existing in a supposedly specific area for thousands of years. Yet, not one scrap of physical evidence has been found, even though these civilizations were living in the same area."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">John Clark's comment is directly relevant to that point.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">It's odd that you're unfamiliar with it, and that you don't care to know about it.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 11:50 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">John Clark's comment is directly relevant to that point.<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" /><br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />It's odd that you're unfamiliar with it, and that you don't care to know about it.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">See my comment, "Those who refuse to know anything about it," above.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 11:57 AM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><i style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli</i> actually does seem to be contagious.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; 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font-weight: 700;"><a data-action="profile" data-tab="" data-username="disqus_9RN9GrQxY1" href="https://disqus.com/by/disqus_9RN9GrQxY1/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">tangata neneva</a></span> </span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324497983" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Louis Midgley</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325496843" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 7:47 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Guest</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324504275" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 12:04 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">FK:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"Please point to anything Dr. Clark has published in an archeological journal where he makes the case for zero physical evidence."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">But, poor fellow, that's precisely the <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">point</i> of his <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">comment</i>!</p><p style="border: 0px; 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Is gemli contagious?</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-7" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">FK:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"Do you truly believe that a "comment" by someone is enough to explain away the total lack of evidence for a civilization, numbering in the millions? Perhaps in your world."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">I'm playing with you, FK. I'm astonished at your gemli-like insistence on commenting unfavorably on the beliefs of other people without taking much if any effort to <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">understand</i> those beliefs.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Professor Clark's comment doesn't "explain away the total lack of evidence." It recasts the issue in a way that more or less <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">dissolves</i> it.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">If I thought that you were seriously interested in understanding our position, I would help you out. But I don't.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-7" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 12:48 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I am confident that a bald assertion by someone like <b style="box-sizing: border-box;">Fred Kratz</b>, who most likely has exactly no training in any academic discipline relevant to the comments he makes, need not be taken seriously.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324611898" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 2:20 PM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">I take physical evidence seriously when someone makes a bald assertion.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; 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color: #656c7a; font-weight: 700;"><a data-action="profile" data-tab="" data-username="disqus_aerWbsvSe6" href="https://disqus.com/by/disqus_aerWbsvSe6/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Louis Midgley</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="85924079" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" tabindex="0"><span aria-label="Follow" class="follow-user" style="-webkit-mask-image: url("https://c.disquscdn.com/next/embed/assets/img/follow.160e74d77da7f001267b7fc1a8230244.svg"); background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324499599" style="border: 0px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 12:46 PM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">Fred Kratz</b> seems to actually want Professor Peterson to "Please point to anything Dr. Clark has published in an archeological journal <b style="box-sizing: border-box;">where he makes the case for zero physical evidence</b>." The fact is that John Clark believes that there a great deal of "physical evidence" supporting the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica, but zero evidence in the Great Lakes area. I just happen to own a book entitled Remembrance and Return, in which on pages 213-256, John Clark sets out evidence that <b style="box-sizing: border-box;">Fred Kratz</b> should and even could read if he really wants to know something about the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324610497" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 2:18 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324643242" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:06 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">The definition undoubtedly means a great deal more to someone consistently willing to label others.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">He deflected.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324665423" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:41 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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Sic et Non is a blog. It has a POV, because the owner has a POV. Given that the POV here so enrages you, I'm sure it would be better for your blood pressure to go and find a forum that is more congenial to your narrow, censorious views.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; 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position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Guest</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324610590" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 2:18 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">FK:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"Has he published anything in an archeological journal regarding this great deal of physical evidence for millions of Jaredites or Lehites?"</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">He's published a great <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">deal</i> in archaeological journals, and has done some LDS-oriented publishing. I hope you'll read it someday.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-4" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 11:45 AM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">Fred Krat</b>z is stuck in repeat. 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margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">If students refuse to read the assigned texts, should they be allowed to commandeer class time for questions that others have already answered for themselves?</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:09 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">Is that what you did with students who asked uncomfortable questions?</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">If you really believe your (completely rhetorical) questions are "uncomfortable," then I need to introduce you to two gentlemen who may be able to help: Dr Dunning and Dr Kruger.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div><p><br /></p><ul data-role="children" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #2a2e2e; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="post minimized" id="post-5324481103" style="border: 0px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 9:07 PM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">No, Churchill is still relevant: you can't change your mind and won't change the subject, much like Noel. But Dunning and Kruger are relevant, too: you don't know enough to realise just how little you know. Much like gemli.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-4" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:25 PM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Fred Kratz is not able to ask what he describes as "uncomfortable questions."</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325384339" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 6:21 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">What I am asking is where is the evidence for those millions and millions of literate, city building, gold, silver, brass, bronze, and steel using Jaredites who lived for a thousand plus years in a small geographic location after crossing the Pacific in eight sail-less water tight barges <b style="box-sizing: border-box;"><i style="box-sizing: border-box;">against prevailing currents and trade winds?</i></b></blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Guest</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5327840584" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Saturday, April 3, 2021 4:19 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">This has actually been addressed in print, FK.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Do you care?</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5327854804" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Guest</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5328121788" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Saturday, April 3, 2021 8:18 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">I would love to read your personal take on this Jaredite barge building/year-long ocean voyage, or anyone else's.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">But would you, though?</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Dan keeps recommending things for you to read about your various obsessions, and you refuse to read any of them.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Is that so that you can maintain the illusion that those things "defy common sense?"</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; 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background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5328295178" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Guest</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5328357985" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Saturday, April 3, 2021 12:18 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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That is, you don't respond as if you disagree with (for instance) John Clark, but as if you are simply unfamiliar with what he wrote. <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">Either</i> you haven't read them, <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">or</i> you are not engaging this discussion in good faith.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Which is it?</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Guest</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5329018843" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Sunday, April 4, 2021 4:45 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">FK:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"John Clark must have all the answers."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">He has <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">some</i> -- including some that answer questions in which you claim to have an <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">interest</i>.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">FK:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"How does he explain a lack of evidence for millions and millions of Jaredites?"</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Find out!</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Guest</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5329049936" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Sunday, April 4, 2021 5:14 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">It's not hidden, FK.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">If I thought you were sincere, I would put some effort into preparing a reading list for you.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">I've long since concluded, however, that you aren't. So I'm not inclined to do that.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">You can easily do it on your own.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5328339161" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Saturday, April 3, 2021 11:55 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Saturday, April 3, 2021 8:02 AM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">And of course, there's not the <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">slightest</i> hint of anger evident in that outburst. :)</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">The "trade winds" are equatorial, of course. In the temperate zones, the prevailing winds are westerlies, of course.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">For more information, Google "Great Circle route."</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">Have you ever truly thought about how unreasonable this barge story is? There are so many problems, it's a wonder anyone takes the story seriously.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Do you really have no working sense of irony left? You say that, and yet <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">you</i> take it so seriously that you just can't bear to let it go. You "can't change your mind and won't change the subject," as Churchill said.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; 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font-weight: 700;"><a data-action="profile" data-tab="" data-username="disqus_aerWbsvSe6" href="https://disqus.com/by/disqus_aerWbsvSe6/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Louis Midgley</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="85924079" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" tabindex="0"><span aria-label="Follow" class="follow-user" style="-webkit-mask-image: url("https://c.disquscdn.com/next/embed/assets/img/follow.160e74d77da7f001267b7fc1a8230244.svg"); background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325266792" style="border: 0px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 7:13 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">Fred Kratz</b>: Please do a little search and you will discover that not all that much is known about the people we call Olmecs, since they called themselves Xi, if they were from somewhere in China or some other name, if they were from Africa. The fact is that, much like <b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli</b>, you refuse to read the answers to you questions, which are not genuine questions by actually assertions that you think, wrongly, should damage or even destroy the faith of Latter-day Saints. I strongly urge you to play in your own little sandbox, and cease being a pest on <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">sic et non</i>.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325551404" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 8:30 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">FK:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"What I am asking is where is the evidence for those millions and millions of literate, city building, gold, silver, brass, bronze, and steel using Jaredites who lived for a thousand plus years in a small geographic location after crossing the Pacific in eight sail-less water tight barges against prevailing currents and trade winds?"</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">That one simple comment from John Clark would help you so very, very much! And yet you don't care.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">FK:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"After all, the people called Olmecs, their carved heads and remnant cities have been found."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Indeed!</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Wednesday, March 31, 2021 11:17 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">You're welcome to believe anything you like. All religions cling to different miraculous claims, and believers will literally fight to the death to defend conflicting beliefs. This is the only way to settle such conflicts because there's no way to demonstrate the truth of one claim over the other. That's because they're all products of the imagination.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">When I hear these discrepant tales of gods, angels, demons, "golden plates" and all the rest the last thing I feel is "terror." What I feel is bewilderment. There's no evidence of gods, angels, golden plates, walking on water, living forever and all the other imaginary claims that theists make to alleviate their terror of actual and final death. Meh. Get used to it. We die. It's the fate of every living thing. It's nothing to be happy about (usually), but it's not the end of the world.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">My beliefs were shared by Freud, Albert Camus, Paul Dirac, Richard Feynman, Stephen Hawking and Bertrand Russell, just to name a few, so I'm not the only one harboring ignorant pre-adolescent prejudices. I'm OK with that.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-0" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5324908572" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325191916" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 3:53 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"There's no evidence of gods, angels, golden plates"</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">"Spouting off before listening to the facts is both shameful and foolish." 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> DanielPeterson</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325328748" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 5:38 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">There are <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">claims</i> of facts, and the claims rely on the preemptive belief that spirit beings exist. So to use such claims to prove the existence of spirit beings is a fallacy.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; 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font-weight: 700;"><a data-action="profile" data-tab="" data-username="kiwi57" href="https://disqus.com/by/kiwi57/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">Kiwi57</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="50716702" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" tabindex="0"><span aria-label="Follow" class="follow-user" style="-webkit-mask-image: url("https://c.disquscdn.com/next/embed/assets/img/follow.160e74d77da7f001267b7fc1a8230244.svg"); background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325328748" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325464430" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 7:23 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">There are claims of facts, and the claims rely on the preemptive belief that spirit beings exist. So to use such claims to prove the existence of spirit beings is a fallacy.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Wrong. But thanks for playing.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">There are reports of events and artefacts. These reports are evidence. Multiple reports that the witnesses maintain over time, without any obvious motive to lie, are <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">good</i> evidence.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">If the events happened and the artefacts existed, that may, in turn, be evidence in support of the existence of what uninformed people lazily and inaccurately describe as "spirit beings." But the reports do not "rely on the preemptive[sic] belief that spirit beings exist." They rely only upon the events.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">There is, however, a fallacy in view: namely, the fallacy that assumptions are evidence.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">They are not.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Your prejudice against reports of events and artefacts that threaten your assumptions does not weigh against those reports.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Sorry.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325512950" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 8:00 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Kiwi57</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5326281038" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Friday, April 2, 2021 12:16 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">How do we know that the witnesses saw and handled the plates? This tale has grown in the telling, like all fables.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Smith was certainly an honorable fellow, only having been arrested forty-two times for perpetrating various frauds in four states. But I'm sure this time he was telling the truth, because it's so obvious. Of course there are gods and angels and spirits and all sorts of beings that provide golden plates containing stories of civilizations that lived in North America and yet left no physical trace or record of their existence.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">It's the people who doubt such stories that have to prove that they didn't exist. 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5326710831" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Friday, April 2, 2021 6:28 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"How do we know that the witnesses saw and handled the plates?"</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Eleven official witnesses and roughly half a dozen unofficial witnesses testified -- repeatedly, for sixty years -- about their experiences. Nothing, except your own rigid and closed-minded dogmatism, prevents you from examining the evidence on this score.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"This tale has grown in the telling, like all fables."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Actually, it hasn't. As you could know, were you willing to know things.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"Smith was certainly an honorable fellow, only having been arrested forty-two times for perpetrating various frauds in four states."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Excellent research has been done (and much of it has been published) on Joseph Smith's legal history. You could know this, if you weren't completely unwilling to know it.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">"Whoever answers before listening, theirs is folly and shame." 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> DanielPeterson</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5327542826" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Friday, April 2, 2021 11:58 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">There are witnesses to magic tricks today who swear that what they saw could not have been faked. I can only imagine what sort of skepticism superstitious townspeople in the 1800's would bring to claims of spirit beings and magical artifacts if they were not presented as a trick, but as an actual miraculous event.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Psychological researchers know that superstitions grow in the telling. Every magician knows that a simple card trick becomes a miracle if someone who was fooled relates the story to another. The viewing of a "miracle" grants status to the viewer. They become invested in their tale, and will never admit that they were fooled.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Yes, there has been excellent research by many people made of Joseph Smith's legal history. There would be very little such research to do on mine, because there's nothing to research.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; 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background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325328748" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5325548645" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Thursday, April 1, 2021 8:28 AM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"There are claims of facts, and the claims rely on the preemptive belief that spirit beings exist."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">The claim of the Eight Witnesses absolutely does <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">not</i> depend upon a presumption that angels exist.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">You would know this, if you would ever take the trouble to make yourself even minimally informed on this subject.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">"Answering before listening is both stupid and rude." 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> DanielPeterson</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5326324874" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Friday, April 2, 2021 12:55 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">I'm fairly well informed about the real world, and about the psychology of belief.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I'm always surprised that theists can believe completely discrepant and conflicting "truths" and still band together when atheists point out their foolish inconsistencies.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; 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background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5326324874" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5326749896" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Friday, April 2, 2021 7:03 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">I'm fairly well informed about the real world"</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">On the question of the plates and the witnesses to them, your boast is completely vacuous.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; 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margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I said the <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">real</i> world, not the scores of conflicting supernatural worlds that people have created out of their imaginations.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"I said the real world, not the scores of conflicting supernatural worlds that people have created out of their imaginations."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">In the matter of the plates, we're not talking about some vague "supernatural [<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">sic</i>] world." We're talking about inscribed metal plates weighing between forty and sixty pounds.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Your dogmatic ideology forbids you to acknowledge their existence. But that's your problem, not ours. The evidence is clear. You simply refuse to look at it.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">"The one who gives an answer before he listens—this is foolishness and disgrace for him." 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> DanielPeterson</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5328737323" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Saturday, April 3, 2021 11:45 PM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">The fact that the plates don't exist prevents me from acknowledging their existence. All that exists is a story, attested to by people who had a stake in its telling.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Are all theological claims real, even the ones that contradict other ones?<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />Has any visitation by a spirit being left a shred of evidence that can be examined?<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />Would you be comfortable buying a gold mine claim from Joseph Smith?</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; 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background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5328737323" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5328998902" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Sunday, April 4, 2021 4:26 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"The fact that the plates don't exist . . ."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">. . . hasn't been demonstrated and seems to contradict an abundance of evidence.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">The fact that you're deliberately ignorant, however, has been conclusively demonstrated.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> DanielPeterson</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5329318555" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Sunday, April 4, 2021 9:16 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">The claims of a handful of people who were susceptible to superstitious belief do not constitute and "abundance of evidence."</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">There are many distinguished, intelligent and accomplished scientists who are as deliberately ignorant as I am. I'm glad to be in their company.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-2" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5329318555" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5329325277" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Sunday, April 4, 2021 9:22 AM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"The claims of a handful of people who were susceptible to superstitious belief do not constitute and "abundance of evidence.""</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">You're too uninformed to have a valid opinion on this topic, gemli. You should stop embarrassing yourself.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">"Spouting off before listening to the facts is both shameful and foolish." (Proverbs 18:13, New Living Translation)</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"There are many distinguished, intelligent and accomplished scientists who are as deliberately ignorant as I am. I'm glad to be in their company."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Your deliberate refusal to know what you're talking about doesn't place you in their company. If they were as resolutely ignorant as you are on the subjects that they address, they would be neither distinguished nor accomplished nor, for that matter, scientists.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; 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line-height: 1.2; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s; width: 60px; z-index: 100;" target="_blank"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;">G</div></a></div><div class="post-body" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-left: 48px; overflow: hidden;"><header class="comment__header" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 18px; line-height: 1; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-top: 2px; min-height: 20px; padding-right: 80px;"><span class="post-byline" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="author publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #656c7a; font-weight: 700;"><a data-action="profile" data-tab="" data-username="gemli" href="https://disqus.com/by/gemli/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" target="_blank">gemli</a></span> <a class="follow-user-container" data-action="follow" data-user="30829022" style="border: 0px; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> DanielPeterson</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5329859011" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Monday, April 5, 2021 12:52 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">There are many distinguished scientists who think religions are bunk. A smaller but significant percentage are devout believers. That fact would indicate that intelligence is not what distinguishes theists from atheists. It's a question of psychological predisposition, because there is no tangible, examinable or convincing evidence of any theistic claim.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; 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background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5329859011" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5330039631" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Monday, April 5, 2021 4:17 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Friday, April 2, 2021 12:37 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I don't doubt that eight men lifted something heavy.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; 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display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5326723474" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Friday, April 2, 2021 6:39 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"I don't doubt that eight men lifted something heavy."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Their consistent testimony, and that of others, goes beyond merely lifting something heavy -- as you could easily know, if you were willing to know something.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">"What a shame—yes, how stupid!—to decide before knowing the facts!" 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Friday, April 2, 2021 6:46 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Your repeating a story, not presenting evidence for it that comports with reality. I know what you believe. What I don't understand is why you, or anyone, would believe it.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 26.875px; justify-content: center;"><a class="vote-up count-2" data-action="upvote" href="https://disqus.com/embed/comments/?base=default&f=danpeterson&t_i=90682%20https%3A%2F%2Fadmin.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F%3Fp%3D90682&t_u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fdanpeterson%2F2021%2F03%2Fa-free-fall-death-spiral.html&t_e=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_d=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&t_t=%E2%80%9CA%20free%20fall%20death%20spiral%E2%80%9D&s_o=default#" name="Vote up" style="border-radius: 20px; 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background-color: #687a86; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; height: 18px; margin-left: 5px; vertical-align: top; width: 18px;" title="Follow"></span></a></span><span class="parent-link-container" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> <a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5326731718" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> gemli</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5326736999" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Friday, April 2, 2021 6:51 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"Your repeating a story, not presenting evidence for it that comports with reality. "</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">You haven't <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">looked</i> at the evidence.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"><b style="box-sizing: border-box;">gemli:</b> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">"I know what you believe. What I don't understand is why you, or anyone, would believe it."</i></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">There's no secret about why we believe it. You refuse to look.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">You've embarrassed yourself here very badly with this performance.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Saturday, April 3, 2021 12:10 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Testimony is a story. It can be true, false or mistaken.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I wonder what sort of scientific skepticism people from the early 1800's might bring to a miracle story presented by a charismatic charlatan who was known to commit various frauds?</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Saturday, April 3, 2021 7:57 AM">2 years ago</a> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><span class="has-edit" data-role="has-edit" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-size: 13px;">edited</span></span></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Smith was arrested dozens of times, so no, he was not an honorable character. To think farmers born in the 1700's were rational and skeptical about the supernatural is stretching things to the breaking point. Only a few related family members claim to have seen the "plates," and they were certainly not random strangers, being comprised almost entirely of Smiths and Whitmers.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">I've got no motive to "lie." I'm not in the thrall of this or that faith. I want to know what is true, and every religious story makes hash of reality. This is something up with which I will not put. I don't need to be defensive or snarky. I only need to point out that the scores of theologies are not based on real events, but on the credulous nature of human beings.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; 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transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Saturday, April 3, 2021 9:02 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote style="border-bottom-color: initial; border-bottom-style: initial; border-image: initial; border-left-color: rgb(104, 122, 134); border-left-style: solid; border-right-color: initial; border-right-style: initial; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: initial; border-width: 0px 0px 0px 4px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 12px;">Smith was arrested dozens of times, so no, he was not an honorable character.</blockquote><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;"></p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Actually the evidence of Joseph Smith's honourable character is far greater than any evidence there might be for yours. Put another way: Joseph was a better man than you. And if all the spiteful gossip you choose to believe because it fits your ideology was true, he'd <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">still</i> be a better man than you.</p></div></div><span class="post-media" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><ul data-role="post-media-list" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></ul></span></div></div></div><footer class="comment__footer" style="box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; color: #656c7a; margin: 8px 0px 0px;"><menu class="comment-footer__menu" style="align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; margin: -4px 0px 0px; padding: 0px;"><li class="voting" data-role="voting" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: left; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 15px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px 10px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; transition: opacity 0.3s ease 0s;"><div class="post-votes" style="align-items: center; 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font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;"><i aria-label="in reply to" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box;" title="in reply to"></i> Kiwi57</a></span></span><span class="post-meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin-top: 6px; position: relative; top: -5px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a class="time-ago icon icon-clock" data-role="relative-time" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Walking+in+the+Light+of+Jesus+Christ&utm_content=48&lctg=243269&rsid=Legacy&recipId=243269&siteId=7DF2956C-D2F1-40D4-A777-98E450E58360#comment-5328784424" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: #687a86; font-family: inherit; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; transition: color 0.1s linear 0s;" title="Sunday, April 4, 2021 12:44 AM">2 years ago</a></span></header><div class="post-body-inner" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: -5px;"><div class="post-message-container" data-role="message-container" style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: hidden; position: relative; width: 791.296px; zoom: 1;"><div class="publisher-anchor-color" data-role="message-content" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="post-message" data-role="message" dir="auto" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 21px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="box-sizing: border-box;"><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px;">Smith was a scam artist with enormous chutzpah and imagination. Given his legal history, he sure knew how to hook the rubes and reel them in. You've got to admire the guy.</p><p style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">And by the way, I can get you a great deal on dowsing rods, slightly used and completely dry.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul></div></li></ul>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-68525701416731069432023-02-07T12:29:00.001-08:002023-03-09T10:48:47.512-08:00Dan on why people leave<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Dan addressed an important topic recently. His approach probably represents the "mainstream" view among LDS apologists and maybe even leaders; i.e., he concludes that the ex-mo movement on social media is a "unique subculture." </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Some LDS think the ex-mo "subculture" is nothing new, that critics have always been complaining and attacking, that their objections pale against the doctrines of the Restoration, etc. Thus, the ex-mo "subculture" can be dismissed without further argument. And that's true for many faithful Latter-day Saints, particularly those who have been members for a long time. They've heard/seen it all, they think, so they are impervious to the claims of the critics.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">I've had many such "seasoned" members ask me why their kids, grandkids, other relatives, friends, former missionary companions, etc., are leaving. I ask if they've heard of the CES Letter or MormonStories. Almost always, they say they have never heard of these critics or their arguments. It's no wonder they are perplexed at the exodus. But ignoring the issues is not an effective response.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Neither are the convoluted apologetics from the SITH/M2C citation cartel, who spend much of their time (i) rationalizing why they repudiate the teachings of the prophets about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon, and (ii) attacking Latter-day Saints who still accept and seek to corroborate the teachings of the prophets on these issues.</span></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh1LBc0Bq2Nh2RJqvZBWqL1p8LM-tQMJlGdB6hsM5p_D-yPQ7U7QjNhGBCgTN5fNUJZbiZmNedVSHqt0Pw6OJ4u7XZgcI-SeBuROxLzKRYywjE90yuEEGRQ11PSWJCC6RBR1iHGLPpjkVZZU3wbLS8sLt2puKkYLKUb0_NJNbrkF8cPetNHTbkUO6Io/s779/Slander%20Dan%20at%20work%20in%20office.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="438" data-original-width="779" height="180" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh1LBc0Bq2Nh2RJqvZBWqL1p8LM-tQMJlGdB6hsM5p_D-yPQ7U7QjNhGBCgTN5fNUJZbiZmNedVSHqt0Pw6OJ4u7XZgcI-SeBuROxLzKRYywjE90yuEEGRQ11PSWJCC6RBR1iHGLPpjkVZZU3wbLS8sLt2puKkYLKUb0_NJNbrkF8cPetNHTbkUO6Io/s320/Slander%20Dan%20at%20work%20in%20office.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><span style="font-size: large;">_____</span><p></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">An alternative perspective sees the social media ex-mo community as modeling behavior to convince LDS youth that it's not only "okay" to leave the Church, but that it's "cool" to leave the Church. The ex-mo community seeks to create a narrative that the Church is at </span><span style="font-size: large;">a tipping point; i.e., they have generated a widespread sense that the truth claims of the Restoration cannot be defended, particularly regarding the Book of Mormon.</span><span style="font-size: large;"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Dan himself is a major contributor to this through his promotion of SITH and M2C. By parroting the SITH narrative from <i>Mormonism Unvailed</i>, Dan's film <i>Witnesses </i>established SITH in the minds of viewers because Dan purports to present the "faithful" version of events.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">There can hardly be any more precision attack on the Restoration than an attack on the origin of the Book of Mormon. We all know what happens when the keystone is removed from an arch. And SITH is a precision missile aimed directly at they keystone.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">_____</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">As usual, Dan demonstrates one of the reasons why people find LDS apologists unappealing, right in his first paragraph on this topic.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><a href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2023/02/why-do-people-leave-the-church-a-few-simple-thoughts.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=BRSS&utm_campaign=Latter-day+Saint&utm_content=366" target="_blank">https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2023/02/why-do-people-leave-the-church-a-few-simple-thoughts.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=BRSS&utm_campaign=Latter-day+Saint&utm_content=366</a> </span></p><p><br /></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Why do people fall out of activity in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? In a highly predictable place elsewhere, I see that my views on this topic are being misrepresented. Again. (Color me astonished!) Apparently, it seems, I believe that people only leave the Church because they want to sin. They want to commit adultery, drink coffee, and commit other such devilish acts. I’m a very mean-spirited and vicious person, and I am, of course, wickedly slandering those who disagree with me.</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: medium;">Dan doth protest too much. "Of course" is the tell here. Dan and his fellow "Interpreters" have a long history of this type of rhetoric and slander. Wasn't that why he was given the boot from FARMS years ago?</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Also, note the difference between "leave the church" in the title and "fall out of activity in the church" which is more than a semantic difference.</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m aware of people who have left the Church quite deliberately because they wanted to do something that the Church counsels them not to do. It happens. People do leave marriages, abandoning spouses and children, in order to sleep with somebody else, so why would such folks draw the line at leaving the Church?</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Still, there are presumably as many permutations and combinations of reasons for living as there are <em style="box-sizing: border-box;">people</em>. Likewise, there are people — I know a fair number of them and have heard from many others — who, so far as I’m aware, leave for purely or at least largely “intellectual” reasons. Which is to say that they leave because of historical concerns (e.g., doubts about the historicity of the Book of Mormon and/or the Book of Abraham, dislike for what they know or think they know about early Latter-day Saint plural marriage, etc.), because of theological issues (e.g., seeming conflicts between faith and science), or, increasingly, because of socio-cultural tensions (e.g., regarding the status of women or controversies involved with LGBTQIA+ matters).</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: large;">Dan, like other apologists, denies any contribution to the exodus. Yet social media, polls, and innumerable anecdotes from the ex-mo community show that SITH is one of the principal reasons people cite for leaving. Long-time members are astonished to see LDS apologists side with the critics by repudiating the teachings of the prophets, starting with Joseph and Oliver, that Joseph translated the plates by means of the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates.</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: large;">Dan and his followers seek to persuade even Latter-day Saints that Joseph never even used the plates or the Urim and Thummim. Instead, they insist that the entire Book of Mormon we have today came from words that appeared on a stone in the hat, and that Joseph and Oliver were ignorant speculators who misled everyone about the Hill Cumorah in New York. But those apologetic arguments have nothing to do with the exodus, according to Dan and the rest of the citation cartel.</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: large;">Next he addresses apathy, a separate problem. </span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">At least historically, though — it may be changing somewhat in the past decade or so — I’m convinced by admittedly anecdotal but very wide personal experience and broad reading that the large majority of “inactives” haven’t fallen away from the Church because, after considerable study and research and struggle, they’ve come to the decisive conclusion that the claims of the Restoration are false. (They may eventually reach that conclusion, of course, simply because, the longer they’re away, the less attraction they feel for their one-time affiliation and involvement with the Church, the more distant it all seems, and the more they come to assimilate to the surrounding cultural and religious environment. It’s perhaps rather like a long-ago former marriage.)</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Most, I think, drift away from attendance out of indifference, enjoying Sundays not taken up with church activities, enjoying a morning coffee, disliking church services, lack of interest in the issues at the forefront of the Gospel, and so forth. Not necessarily very dramatic. Usually, I think, not. The sudden decision to “exit” is, I think, relatively rare. Overwhelmingly, I think, most who once fellowshipped with the Saints but no longer do are still members of the Church. They haven’t asked for their names to be removed.</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: large;">Is apathy and indifference really a separate problem? For many, apathy is a way for people to cope with the cognitive dissonance of trying to sort out which teachings of the prophets are merely incorrect opinions (according to Dan) and which are legitimate and true.</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">I draw on my experience with a large and often long-time inactive or semi-active family on my maternal side. (My paternal family are almost entirely, so far as I’m aware, inactive Lutherans.). In more than a few cases, I think, if you were to ask them, they would probably concede that “the Church is true.” They might even say that, yes, they probably ought to be reading the scriptures and praying. They just don’t. They have other interests and other things to do, and their lives are, in their opinion, going pretty well without being “churchy.”</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">My sense is that ideological ex-Mormons who are active in online fora where they continually reinforce each other’s conviction that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is false, evil, oppressive, laughable, and etc. form a unique subculture (as do, frankly, those of us who spend a significant proportion of our time countering such claims and arguing that the Church is true and good, that its leaders are sincere and good people who are attempting to serve God and to receive revelation and inspiration). </span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: large;">Rather than countering the claims of the critics, Dan's SITH and M2C teachings directly support those claims. That message of support for critics undermines Dan's otherwise thoughtful and helpful defense of the Church's positive impact in the world.</span></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"; font-size: 20px; margin: 0px 0px 16px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Most people don’t live in that world, just as most people aren’t addicted to news and politics (as I can easily be). It’s easy, living in a subculture, to take that fish tank for the entirety of the sea. It’s easy, living inside the Capital Beltway or with cable news on 24/7, to imagine that everybody out there cares just as much as you do about the latest events involving Kevin McCarthy, Ilhan Omar, Hunter Biden, and the political ambitions of Mike Pompeo and Nikki Haley. But most don’t.</span></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-63057032264694370052022-11-15T08:31:00.000-08:002022-11-15T08:31:14.318-08:00My response to the Kraus "rejoinder"<p><br /></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b>Responding to Kraus and the <i>Interpreter</i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Earlier this year (2022), the <i>Interpreter</i> published two
separate reviews written by Spencer Kraus, with the assistance of Mike Parker
and Gregory L. Smith, “other” family and friends (especially his father) and
the pseudonymous “Peter Pan.” The first was a 23,000-word review of my book <i>A
Man that Can Translate: Joseph Smith and the Nephite Interpreters. </i>The
second was a 13,000-word review of my book <i>Infinite Goodness: Jonathan
Edwards, Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon</i>.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">I welcomed the consideration of my books because of the
important issues involved. To a large degree, the fallacies in the Kraus articles
are self-evident and I initially saw no reason to respond. I figured readers
could tell by the tone and content that Kraus and his collaborators were venting
their long-held (and inexplicable) antagonism towards me. Besides, people will
believe whatever they want. The SITH-sayers would use the Kraus articles to
confirm their biases and those who still accept the Urim and Thummim would spot
Kraus’ fallacies. <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">On the other hand, readers of the <i>Interpreter</i> are
rarely, if ever, given an opportunity to read perspectives that differ from the
SITH and M2C narratives approved of and enforced by the editorial board.
Writing a response would at least give readers something to consider.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">I wrote to Jeff Lindsay, whom I consider the most
open-minded participant with the <i>Interpreter</i>, and offered to write a response.
He agreed, suggesting I follow the example of the response provided by Matt
Grow to the <i>Interpreter’s</i> criticism of Volume 4 of the JSP Revelations
and Translations, dealing with the Book of Abraham. That response was about 2800 words. Jeff published
a cordial rejoinder welcoming Grow’s response but noting remaining issues.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">In my response to the Kraus articles, I addressed the four
main points Kraus identified. My response was 3900 words, a little longer than the
guidelines I was given but acceptable to the <i>Interpreter</i>. The editorial
process was smooth. They asked me to omit the SITH acronym because they
considered it offensive. I did so. There was a little additional give-and-take,
but by any measure, they did a fair job. I even recorded my response in a hotel
room in Chamonix, France, between midnight and 2 am to meet their deadline.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">The <i>Interpreter </i>delayed publication until Kraus could
complete a 4,000-word rejoinder, complaining that I didn’t respond enough to
all of his points. He raised more questions and identified several specific
points that, he claimed, “are critical to his theses, and as such a defense of
them is warranted on Neville’s part.”<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/">https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/</a></p><p class="MsoNormal">Faced with the challenge from Kraus that my defense “is
warranted,” I asked the <i>Interpreter</i> if I could address his specific
points. They refused to publish my additional response but said I could submit comments
to the article if I wanted to.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Obviously, this is problematic because the published version
of the <i>Interpreter</i> does not include comments, leaving readers with the
impression that I had no response even if I posted comments to their online edition.
And, of course, comments tend to be buried (assuming the webmaster approved
them, a dubious assumption given the webmaster’s past practice of censoring
comments he disapproves of.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">The length of Kraus’ rejoinder further complicates the idea
of submitting my response as a comment to his article. Instead, I posted the
entire response here on this blog and sent the link as a comment to his article
in the <i>Interpreter</i>. We’ll see if the webmaster publishes my comment.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Another complication is the “whack-a-mole” nature of the exchange.
Instead of having the <i>Interpreter</i> publish a lengthy “review” by avowed and
public antagonists such as Kraus and his collaborators, a better procedure would
be to have their work first peer-reviewed by their target—me—or at least by
someone who didn’t share Kraus’ views. The editorial board of the <i>Interpreter</i>
could referee tone and errors, thereby assuring publication of a useful
critique that is factual and rational, accompanied by the original author’s
alternative perspective, with clear areas of agreement and agreements to
disagree with accompanying rationales. This would be similar to the way a court
issues majority and dissenting opinions for everyone to see and evaluate. <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Instead, the <i>Interpreter</i> has ended up with three lengthy
articles confirming the editorial bias of its board, offset only by my single relatively
brief response, relegating the more detailed response to mere “comments” (or,
in this case to this separate blog). <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">I’ve long observed that the <i>Interpreter</i> is not a
legitimate academic journal, and this latest experience is just another example
of the problems with the present editorial board. And that’s fine, so long as
everyone understands what the <i>Interpreter</i> actually is (as opposed to
what it presents itself as). <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Still, this episode opens the door to more constructive
dialog. I continue to hope that someday, the <i>interpreter</i> will find a way
to give a voice to a variety of faithful interpretations (multiple working
hypotheses), and not merely to those specific interpretations long advocated by
its principals.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">With that introduction, here are my comments in response to
Kraus’ rejoinder to my published response. I could have spent even more time delving into the details, but simple cost/benefit analysis gives priority to other projects. I encourage interested readers to consider Kraus' points more fully, but only after reading the books that started this give-and-take in the first place.</p><p class="MsoNormal">And, as I write at the conclusion of this response, I encourage full consideration of multiple working hypotheses, always pending additional information.</p><table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184;">
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<td style="border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Jonathan Neville has
offered some thoughts regarding my two recent reviews, and I am happy to
discuss and defend what I wrote. In Neville’s response, he claims that I
offered “caricatures” of his arguments that are “inaccurate” and that I
“omitted” context in my reviews.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote1sym" title="1. Jonathan Neville, “A Man that Can Translate and Infinite Goodness: A Response to Recent Reviews,” Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 53 (2022): 172."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">1</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">As we’ll see,
in this review Kraus commits the same mistakes yet again.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I do not believe this
is an accurate assessment, and Neville misrepresents what I wrote and ignores
citations that he himself included in his books to which I responded.
Ultimately, his response fails to defend his works.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Naturally, he
disagrees and accuses me of misrepresenting him, even when I quote him.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> After offering a
brief overview of his Demonstration Hypothesis (which I will discuss
shortly), Neville states the important context to be aware of is the
competing claims regarding the origin of the Book of Mormon. This is true,
and it is context with which many believers in the Restoration are intimately
familiar.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Agreed.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville cites Eber D.
Howe’s </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Mormonism Unvailed</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> as proof for his
view of competing origins, but misunderstands and misappropriates Howe’s
arguments to apparently make this an issue regarding how the Book of Mormon
was translated. This is not the issue for Howe, however. The issue for
him—and the entire basis of his book—is not </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">how</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> the
Book of Mormon was translated, but whether it was translated at all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The title of
his book explains Howe’s purpose; he wanted to reveal what was behind the “vail.” Howe answered with the Spalding theory. He described the SITH narrative only to show how ridiculous it was.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">As I explained in AMTCT, </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Howe’s book used the term "unvailed" only once (apart from the title), and that was in connection with the curtain that Charles Anthon had described on page 270. "This young man was placed behind a curtain, in the garret of a farm house, and, being thus concealed from view, put on the spectacles occasionally, or rather, looked through one of the glasses, decyphered [sic] the characters in the book." </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">On page 278, Howe wrote, “That there has been, from the beginning of the imposture, a more talented knave behind the curtain, is evident to our mind, at least; but whether he will ever be clearly, fully and positively unvailed and brought into open day-light, may of course be doubted.”</p><div><br /></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page
186]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Howe believed that Joseph Smith was a fraud and the Book of
Mormon was false. Latter-day Saints claim otherwise.</span><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This
misstates Howe’s argument. Howe claimed Joseph dictated the text from behind a
curtain or “vail” because he was reading the Spalding manuscript, or a text
based on the Spalding manuscript.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><br /></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Howe,
in his work, relates two different options for the translation of the Book of
Mormon, but as I discuss in my review of Neville’s work, he attacks any and
all forms of translation and revelation in modern times. It is disheartening
to see a response defending one’s work avoid dealing with the points raised
in my reviews regarding Howe’s work, and does not bode well for the rest of
Neville’s response.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote2sym" title="2. For my discussion on Howe and Mormonism Unvailed, see Spencer Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach to Joseph Smith’s Translation of Ancient Scripture,” Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 52 (2022): 25–28, https://journal.interp"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">2</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The question
of whether the Book of Mormon was translated <i>directly </i>implicates the manner in which it
was produced. </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Howe made the simple and obvious point that if Joseph didn’t
use the plates at all—if instead he used SITH, as Kraus and other SITHsayers
claim—then it not only was not a translation of the plates, but the testimony
of the witnesses regarding the plates were irrelevant.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">For that
reason, Howe set out the SITH narrative just as SITH proponents do today—a point
that I made in my response but Kraus inexplicably fails to address.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">In
fact, Howe was not the first to claim that a hat was used in the translation
process, with this detail found as early as 1829.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote3sym" title="3. See “Golden Bible,” Palmyra Freeman, August 11, 1829, [2]; Christian Goodwillie, “Shaker Richard McNemar: The Earliest Book of Mormon Reviewer,” Journal of Mormon History 37, no. 2 (Spring 2011): 143 also relates an 1831 account involving the hat. This"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">3</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Here is a
Kraus sleight of hand. I never said Howe was the first to claim a hat was
used. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">On p. 52 of
AMTCT, I wrote, “As we’ve seen already, SITH originated in the early days of
the Church. The earliest known publication that mentioned the Book of Mormon
was in the Palmyra Freeman, dated August 11, 1829 (end of Appendix 1). The
article claimed Joseph put the “spectacles” in a hat.”<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Another
important witness to the translation of the Book of Mormon came in 1830 from
Josiah Stowell, a faithful friend of the prophet Joseph who staunchly defended
the young prophet and never lost his faith in Joseph’s prophetic gifts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Josiah
Stowell’s faith in Joseph as a prophet is irrelevant because Josiah was not a
witness to the translation.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">In
1830, as Joseph was (again) on trial for allegedly being a “disorderly
person,” Stowell testified of the translation of the Book of Mormon in
defense of Joseph, stating that: “as aforesaid, the prisoner [Joseph] said he
translated the book of Mormon, prisoner </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">put
a certain stone into his hat, put his face into the crown</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">,
then drew the brim of the hat around his head to prevent Light—he could then
see as prisoner said, and translate the same, the Bible, got from the hill in
Palmyra.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote4sym" title="4. “Trial Report, 28 August 1832 [State of New York v. JS–C],” p. [2], The Joseph Smith Papers, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/trial-report-28-august-1832-state-of-new-york-v-js-c/1, emphasis added. Significantly, earlier in his remarks, "><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">4</span></sup></a> Should Joseph had
desired to clarify how the Book of Mormon was translated had this been a
factually incorrect statement, that would have been the perfect opportunity
to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This nonsensical
argument would have been edited out by even a cursory peer review.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The first and
simplest answer to Kraus’ point here is right in the <a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/trial-report-28-august-1832-state-of-new-york-v-js-c/1">article</a>
he cites:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="background: white; color: #333333; font-size: 12.0pt;">“To the charge, the
defendant plead not </span><span style="font-variant-ligatures: none;">guilty.</span>”<span style="font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The charge to
which Joseph pled not guilty? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="background: white; color: #333333; font-size: 12.0pt;">“that he, the said </span><span style="font-variant-ligatures: none;">Joseph Smith, Jr. had been guilty of a breach </span><span style="font-variant-ligatures: none;">of the Peace, against the good people of the </span><span style="font-variant-ligatures: none;">State of New York, by looking through a cer</span><span style="font-variant-ligatures: none;">tain stone to find hid treasures, &c. within the </span><span style="font-variant-ligatures: none;">Statute of Limitation.</span>”<span style="font-size: 10.0pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Joseph
pleaded not guilty to the charge of looking for treasure through a stone and
Kraus thinks he should have elaborated by saying he looked through the Urim
and Thummim instead? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Aside from
the futility of making that distinction in a hostile court setting, even a
nonlawyer should know that defendants have a right not to testify. Pleading not
guilty to a charge of using a seer stone is hardly an admission of using a
seer stone. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
does not take these early witnesses of the translation into consideration
when determining that Joseph and Oliver decided to refute the seer-stone
method only in 1834 (without even mentioning the seer </span><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page
187]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">stone as they did so). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">While I could
have used the 1832 newspaper article (Boston Christian Herald) that reported
on the 1830 trial to show that Joseph <b>pleaded not guilty</b> to using a
seer stone, the report of that case is not official, and his not guilty plea may
have related to the statute of limitations. See the explanation here:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/introduction-to-state-of-new-york-v-js-b-and-state-of-new-york-v-js-c/1">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/introduction-to-state-of-new-york-v-js-b-and-state-of-new-york-v-js-c/1</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Notice, Kraus
initially focused on the hat. Here he shifts to the “seer-stone method.” <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Another Kraus
fallacy is asserting that Joseph and Oliver decided to refute SITH only in 1834.
We know the U&T narrative was known in 1832 because Orson Hyde related it
in Boston. Whether they refuted SITH verbally prior to that is unknowable,
but it is highly unlikely that Hyde invented the U&T narrative.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Through
his focus on and misuse of </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Mormonism Unvailed</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">, it
could lead a reader to erroneously believe that Howe was the first to assert
this method of translation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Readers can hardly
be led by my book to believe something contrary to what I wrote.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Still, Howe
was the first to articulate and publish SITH the way the modern SITH-sayers
present it. Earlier publications claimed “spectacles” in a hat, which is impossible
because Joseph never displayed the U&T.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
next responds by claiming that “the fulcrum of the translation issue is the
direct conflict” between Joseph and Oliver’s statements when faced with other
witnesses to the translation.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote5sym" title="5. See Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 175."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">5</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Agreed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Similarly,
at the outset of his response, Neville reiterates his Demonstration
Hypothesis, claiming that it offers “a faithful alternative reconciliation …
between … what Joseph and Oliver claimed … and … what others claimed—that
Joseph produced the Book of Mormon by dictating words that appeared on a
stone he placed in a hat.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote6sym" title="6. Ibid., 172."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">6</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Agreed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">This
is coy rhetoric, used in an attempt to paint the debate between those who
believe Joseph versus those who disbelieve the prophet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This sentence
could use editing for clarity.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">As
has been shown in my review and as will be shown again, this is a false
dichotomy upon which to base the debate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This sentence
could use editing for clarity.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">As
evidence for his claim, Neville cites three instances of Joseph claiming that
he translated the Book of Mormon with the Urim and Thummim that Joseph had
obtained with the plates (after possibly implying that I had purposefully
left them out of the discussion), and then claims that “Joseph specified that
the sole instrument he used to translate came with the plates.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote7sym" title="7. Ibid., 176."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">7</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Readers can examine
Joseph’s statements and decide for themselves. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">One of my
main points is that SITH sayers avoid quoting Joseph’s own statements in
context. Kraus never quoted Joseph’s actual statements in his review and
doesn’t do so here. Nor does the Gospel Topics Essay, the Saints book, the
Institute and Come Follow Me manuals, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">What
explanation can there be for censoring Joseph’s actual statements except that
they refute the SITH narrative? IOW, if Joseph’s statements could be read to
mean he didn’t use the U&T exclusively, or that he used the seer stone
instead, or even that he used both, then why do the SITH sayers take such
care to never quote what Joseph actually said?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Except,
upon examination, it becomes obvious that this is a misreading of Joseph’s
statements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Claiming
something is “obvious” does not make it so. In the next paragraph, we’ll look
at JS’s statements and what Kraus claims is obvious.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">He
does not say that no seer stone was used or that only one instrument was used
— Neville reads his own presuppositions into Joseph’s statements, as he has
done in his books and as I have discussed at length in my two reviews.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">JS: “I
obtained them, and the Urim and Thummim with them, <b>by the means of which</b>,
I translated the plates; and thus came the Book of Mormon. (Elders’ Journal,
July 1838)”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus says
this statement makes it obvious that Joseph used more than one instrument. In
my view, Joseph could not have written this any clearer to say he translated
the plates with the U&T he obtained with the plates. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The Wentworth
letter is equally clear.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">“With the
records was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called "Urim
and Thummim," which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim
of a bow fastened to a breast plate. Through the medium of the Urim and
Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Readers can
decide for themselves.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
closes this portion of his response by claiming there are three explanations
that Latter-day Saints can make regarding the origins of the Book of Mormon.
He further asserts that “any of these explanations can be accepted by
faithful Latter-day Saints.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote8sym" title="8. Ibid."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">8</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Agreed.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> These
explanations are as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: inherit; mso-fareast-font-family: inherit;">1.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Joseph Smith translated the ancient
engravings into English, using “translate” in the ordinary sense of the word
of converting the meaning of a manuscript written in one language into
another language.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: inherit; mso-fareast-font-family: inherit;">2.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Joseph Smith (and/or confederates) composed
the text and Joseph read it surreptitiously, recited it from memory, or
performed it based on prompts or cues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: inherit; mso-fareast-font-family: inherit;">3.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page 188]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Joseph Smith dictated
words that supernaturally appeared on a seer stone he placed in a hat.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote9sym" title="9. Ibid."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">9</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville’s first and
third explanations are simply a false dichotomy, as Neville demonstrates:
“explanation 1 was the ‘faithful’ explanation, while explanations 2 and 3
were the critical or unbelieving explanations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">An editor
should have helped Kraus with this. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">He writes that
1 and 3 are a false dichotomy, but they are simply 2 out of 3 alternatives. Maybe
he meant they are a trichotomy, two of which share a characteristic. But what’s
the point? <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Lately, explanation 3
has been embraced by many believers (including Kraus) as a faithful
explanation that replaces explanation 1.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote10sym" title="10. Ibid."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">10</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus overall
point is that Joseph used the seer stone as described in explanation 3. <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">This is an inaccurate
claim, as the two are not mutually exclusive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Hmmm…<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">It is possible to
believe that Joseph translated ancient engravings into English (explanation
1), and it is possible to simultaneously believe that Joseph did so as he
read words that appeared on a divine instrument (explanation 3).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is word
thinking again. Kraus creates his own false dichotomy by simply changing my
explanation 3 by replacing “seer stone” with “divine instrument” and then
says it’s possible to believe his explanation 3 at the same time as believing
explanation 1.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">My point was
that if Joseph read English words that appeared on a stone (not the U&T),
then he was reading out loud—not translating.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville’s definition
of </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">translation</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> appears to be a
scholarly endeavor, which I have responded to at length in my review of </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">A
Man That Can Translate</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote11sym" title="11. See Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 11–15."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">11</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">“Appears to
be a scholarly endeavor” is Kraus own inference, and not what I said or
implied.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">At no time
did I state, suggest or imply that Joseph learned the ancient characters the
way a “scholar” would.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">By offering a false
dichotomy between “ordinary” translation (by divine means, per explanation 1)
and dictating the translation with the aid of a seer stone (per explanation
3), however, Neville inadvertently avoids responding to my reviews of his
work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">It's
difficult to respond to an argument that keeps shifting.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
then mischaracterizes explanation 3 by asserting that it was historically a
view of critics or unbelievers, only recently gaining acceptance by some
believers, when in fact it is a form of miraculous translation compatible
with the faithful belief that Joseph translated the plates through the power
of God.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Historically,
explanation 3 as I explained it (not as Kraus changed it) was always the view
of critics and unbelievers, of which <i>Mormonism Unvailed</i> is just one
example.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">As we saw
above, Joseph’s own explanation that the SITH sayers avoid is that he
translated the plates by means of the U&T. He left no record in which he claimed
he merely read English words that appeared on a stone.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">This
leads to another point of discussion raised in my reviews, which Neville also
should have offered a response to in order to defend his work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Okay…<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I
discuss two citations from Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer that state that
Joseph read words off of his translation instruments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">As Kraus
admits, I cited these same sources in my book.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">David
Whitmer even describes that it was </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Joseph </span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">who
related that information to him.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus refers
to DW’s 1885 statement, which he accepts on its face:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">“25 Q. Were
you present during any of the time of translation, if so, state how it was
done.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Ans – The
“Interpreters” were taken away from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to
carry away the 116 pages of Mx—of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he
was allowed to go on and translate by the use of a “Seer stone” which he had,
and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and
others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the
translation in English, which enabled him to read it readily.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">DW’s claim
that Joseph did not receive the Interpreters after the 116 pages were lost
directly contradicts what Joseph and Oliver always said. As to what DW says
JS told him “and others” 56 years earlier, Gurley (the interviewer) didn’t
press him on the matter for whatever reason. It’s a question of credibility,
reliability, means, motive and opportunity. Gurley failed to ask who “others”
were, why the original character would appear “upon parchment,” why the
original character would appear at all, and most importantly, why Joseph
said, in writing, that he translated with the U&T that came with the
plates if, as DW claimed, Joseph didn’t even have the U&T.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">From
these citations, it would appear that Oliver, David, and likely Joseph
himself saw no conflict between Neville’s first and third explanations,
because none </span><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page 189]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">truly exists.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote12sym" title="12. Ibid., 13. The relevant sources from Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer are Oliver Cowdery, quoted in Abram W. Benton, “Mormonites,” Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate 2 (9 April 1831): 120; David Whitmer, in “Questions asked of David Whitmer,” 18"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">12</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote12anc"><span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype", serif; font-size: 11.5pt; padding: 0in;">12</span></a><span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #666666; font-family: "Palatino Linotype", serif; font-size: 11.5pt;"><span style="text-align: start;">. Ibid., 13. The relevant sources from Oliver Cowdery and
David Whitmer are Oliver Cowdery, quoted in Abram W. Benton, “Mormonites,”
Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate 2 (9 April 1831): 120; David
Whitmer, in “Questions asked of David Whitmer,” 1885, Zenos Gurley
Collection, Church History Library; David Whitmer, quoted in E. C. Briggs,
“Letter to the Editor,” Saints’ Herald 31 (21 June 1884): 396–97.</span></span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">One reason I
don’t give these sources much credence is they are hearsay from a critical
source. Anyone interested should read the full article. Here is a citation to
a modern critical source: <a href="https://www.mrm.org/mormonites">https://www.mrm.org/mormonites</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Here is the
passage Kraus finds credible:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">“During the
past Summer he was frequently in this vicinity, and others of the baser sort,
as Cowdry, Whitmer, etc., holding meetings, and proselyting a few weak and
silly women, and still more silly men, whose minds are shrouded in a mist of
ignorance which no ray can penetrate, and whose credulity the utmost
absurdity cannot equal. In order to check the progress of delusion, and open
the eyes and understandings of those who blindly followed him, and unmask the
turpitude and villany of those who knowingly abetted him in his infamous
designs; he was again arraigned before a bar of Justice, during last Summer,
to answer to a charge of misdemeanor. This trial led to an investigation of
his character and conduct, which clearly evinced to the unprejudiced, whence the
spirit came which dictated his inspirations. During the trial it was shown
that the Book of Mormon was brought to light by the same magic power by which
he pretended to tell fortunes, discover hidden treasures, &c. Oliver
Cowdry, one of the three witnesses to the book, testified under oath, that
said Smith found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two
transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking
through these, he was able to read in English, the formed Egyptian
characters, which were engraved on the plates. So much for the gift and power
of God. by which Smith says he translate his book. Two transparent stones,
undoubtedly of the same properties, and the gift of the same spirit as the
one in which he looked to find his neighbor’s goods. It is reported, and
probably true, that he commenced his juggling by stealing and hiding property
belonging to his neighbors, and when inquiry was made, he would look in his
stone, (his gift and power) and tell where it was.”<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">(Neville
cited these statements in his book, which makes his false dichotomy all the
more unconvincing.)<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote13sym" title="13. See Jonathan Neville, A Man That Can Translate: Joseph Smith and the Nephite Interpreters (Salt Lake City: Digital Legends Press, 2020), 267–68, 273, 301."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">13</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">First, it’s not
a false dichotomy, and second, I cited the statements not because they are
reliable or credible but because I think everyone should consider all the
facts. The existence of the statements is a fact; whether the content of the
statements is factual is a separate question. I find them not credible and
irreconcilable with what Joseph and Oliver wrote and published.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">This
is further contrasted with Neville’s premise of believing Joseph and Oliver
versus those who claimed “that Joseph produced the Book of Mormon by
dictating words that appeared on a stone he placed in a hat” — especially
because Oliver </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">and probably Joseph</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> (indeed, there is
little reason to doubt David Whitmer on this subject) both claimed that exact
method of translation.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote14sym" title="14. Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 172."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">14</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">After
accepting on its face the hearsay account from anti-Mormon critics in the
passage I quoted above, Kraus goes further to assume that “probably Joseph”
claimed he read words that appeared on a stone in the hat.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">But we don’t
have to guess what Joseph “probably” claimed because he made explicit claims;
i.e., the U&T claims I quoted above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Here, Kraus
says “there is little reason to doubt DW on this subject.” <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Think about
that a moment. Over 50 years after the fact, an antagonistic DW claimed
Joseph didn’t have the U&T after he lost the 116 pages. As early as 1834,
both Joseph and Oliver said Joseph did have the U&T. This is a binary
choice: i.e., they can’t both be correct. But Kraus believes DW over JS and
OC.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">This
was all detailed in my review, and because Neville leaves this unrebutted in
his response, it is entirely improper for him to attempt to frame the debate
in this manner.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote15sym" title="15. See Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 11–15."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">15</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I thought
Kraus’ argument was so weak that it didn’t merit discussion in my brief
review. Now that I’ve explored it in more detail, readers can decide how much
merit his argument has.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">It is
also worth keeping in mind that the term </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Urim
and Thummim </span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">could be used to refer to multiple instruments — as early
Latter-day Saints understood.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote16sym" title="16. See ibid., 3–6. I also discuss Orson Pratt’s use of the term Urim and Thummim to refer to multiple instruments in Spencer Kraus, “Orson Pratt and the Urim and Thummim of Joseph(s),” Latter-day Light and Truth (blog), 16 July 2022, https://latterdaylig"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">16</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Note that, in
addition to all the other points I made on this topic, DW’s statement Kraus
cites above directly contradicts the modern notion that JS and OC used the
terms “interpreters” and “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the stone-from-the-well.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">While
Neville claims his ideas are “neo-orthodox” in his abstract, his framing of
orthodoxy would challenge the faithfulness of multiple Church leaders in the
Book of Mormon translation.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote17sym" title="17. Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 171."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">17</span></sup></a> Russell M. Nelson,
Dieter F. Uchtdorf, D. Todd Christofferson, and Quentin L. Cook have all
discussed Joseph’s use of the seer stone in the hat, as discussed in my
review.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote18sym" title="18. Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 9–10."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">18</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus makes a
straw-man argument here because he simply ignores my observation that
faithful Latter-day Saints do believe the SITH narrative. I’ve never said otherwise.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">While it’s a
matter of public record that, at least in General Conference, no living
member of the Quorum of the Twelve or First Presidency has ever quoted what JS
and/or OC said about the translation (the last to do so was Elder L. Tom
Perry in 2007), that does not constitute their repudiating what JS and OC
said. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">No one can
address every issue, even in multiple talks in General Conference over many
years. Kraus seems to argue that basic teachings become obsolete unless
repeated in General Conference with some unspecified regularity.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Elders Perry,
Boyd K. Packer, Robert D. Hales, Marion G. Romney, Mark E. Petersen, and
others did quote JS and OC in General Conference. More importantly, all the
modern prophets and apostles encourage us to study and rely upon the
scriptures and the teachings of the prophets. Among these are the teachings
of JS, including the Wentworth letter.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><a href="https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-38?lang=eng">https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-38?lang=eng</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus has not
cited any modern prophet/apostle claiming revelation that repudiates what JS
and OC taught about the U&T. We’re all reading the same historical
sources and making our own assessment of relative credibility, reliability,
means, motive, opportunity, etc. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">A problem
arises from modern intellectuals who insist on compliance with their own
interpretation of history. By contrast, I argue in favor of multiple working
hypotheses; i.e., we can all view all the facts and then assess alternative
interpretations, always pending additional information coming to light.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Another
problem is inherent in the SITH narrative. While many faithful Latter-day
Saints think it doesn’t matter how Joseph produced the Book of Mormon (and
that’s perfectly fine), many others (and most non-LDS) think it matters a
great deal. <i>Mormonism Unvailed</i> did not articulate SITH in the hope
that it would build faith in the Book of Mormon; quite the contrary.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">While there
are many reasons why people lose their faith or are deterred from reading the
Book of Mormon, the SITH narrative is touted by critics as the primary reason
to disbelieve the claim of divine origin.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">In my view,
JS and OC emphasized that JS translated the plates with the U&T because
that was an essential evidence of its divine authenticity.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">The
Church’s Gospel Topics essay further demonstrates that it is an entirely
faithful and orthodox view that Joseph did read words off of a divine
instrument placed in his hat.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote19sym" title="19. See “Book of Mormon Translation,” Gospel Topics Essays, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/book-of-mormon-translation."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">19</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Again, Kraus makes
a straw-man argument here. I don’t say the essay reflects a critical view; I
say it fails to recognize alternative faithful views that rely on what JS and
OC said, as reaffirmed by numerous other prophets and apostles.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">My point
about the Gospel Topics essay is the way it omits what JS and OC actually
said about the translation. I don’t follow the reasoning for omitting their
statements in an essay that purports to discuss the translation. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Worse, the
essay truncates one JS statement to change its meaning, while relying on less
reliable statements from others (mingled with the theories of the scholars
who wrote the essays).<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page
190]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville’s second explanation is also troublesome. It is
difficult to see how surreptitiously reciting a text that Joseph or his
confederates composed could be accepted by faithful members as anything but
deception or fraud. However, Neville appears to adhere to a portion of this
claim regarding the Isaiah portions of 2 Nephi.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is one
of the most inexplicable of Kraus’ arguments.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I pointed out
that none of the alleged witnesses of the SITH translation ever described
what, exactly, they heard JS dictate. Everyone has simply assumed that what
they heard was the text of the Book of Mormon.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">There is no
chain of custody between the SITH sessions and the Original Manuscript. None
of those SITH witnesses ever said they heard Joseph dictate 1 Nephi 3:7, or
Jacob 4:6, or any other passage.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Given that, I
suggested that, if what Joseph dictated during the SITH sessions did make it
into the final text, the evidence from the Original Manuscript and other sources
indicates it would have been a few of the Isaiah chapters in 2 Nephi.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">IOW, my
suggestion that Joseph dictated the Isaiah chapters during the SITH sessions
is contingent on the assumption that what Joseph dictated during the SITH
sessions is in the text—something that is unknowable, pending additional
information such as a new source or document.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Responding
to this particular concern, I would challenge the assumption that it is
acceptable for faithful Latter-day Saints.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Now Kraus,
who misrepresented my position on SITH sayers being faithful LDS, is going to
tell us his view on what is acceptable for faithful LDS to believe.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is
another example of an inconsistency that any reasonably diligent editor would
have addressed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Elder
Kim B. Clark recently discussed Book of Mormon historicity in no uncertain
terms, which would rule out this explanation permanently:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 13.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">The Book of Mormon is
what it claims to be, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His restored
Gospel means that we believe exactly what Joseph said it was. If you
reverence it as a sacred text, but don’t believe in its historicity, you
essentially deny its origin … as Joseph said. And so I think it is absolutely
essential [for a] robust faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His restored
Gospel.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote20sym" title="20. Elder Kim B. Clark, “Seeking the Lord Jesus Christ,” presented at the 2020 FAIR Conference. The quote in question comes from the question-and-answer segment, and a recording with this segment is available online at fairlatterdaysaints.org and https://"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">20</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Here we have
a complete non-sequitur. Elder Clark is absolutely correct, but his point has
nothing to do with Kraus argument here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Joseph dictating
portions of the Isaiah chapters from memory has no implication for the
historicity of the Book of Mormon.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Actually, in
my view, SITH destroys historicity by separating the text from the plates.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">IOW, if
Joseph merely read words that appeared on a stone in the hat, there is no tangible
connection to an ancient source. Worse, SITH undermines the narrative of the
plates, rendering them irrelevant (as <i>Mormonism Unvailed</i> pointed out).<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Indeed,
as Joseph Smith likewise stated on no uncertain terms, “Take away the book of
Mormon, and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote21sym" title="21. “Minutes and Discourse, 21 April 1834,” p. 44, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed August 24, 2022, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/minutes-and-discourse-21-april-1834/2."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">21</span></sup></a> Stephen Smoot has
similarly offered persuasive arguments for the necessity of a historical Book
of Mormon, which is entirely incompatible with Neville’s second proposed
explanation.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote22sym" title="22. See Stephen O. Smoot, “Et Incarnatus Est: The Imperative for Book of Mormon Historicity,” Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 30 (2018): 125–62, https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/et-incarnatus-est-the-imperative-fo"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">22</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus
continues his non-sequitur here.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Next,
Neville discusses the “caricature” I provide of his ideas, quoting the outset
of my review of </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Infinite Goodness. </span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">In this
response, I’ve shown several examples of the way Kraus caricatured my ideas.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Relating
the conclusions reached in my previous review of </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">A
Man That Can Translate</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">, I state that Neville
argues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page 191]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 13.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">that
(1) Joseph Smith memorized and recited Isaiah from memory rather than
translate it from the Book of Mormon record; (2) Joseph Smith
tricked his close friends and family, making them believe that he was
translating the aforementioned sections of the Book of Mormon; (3)
many witnesses to the Book of Mormon are not to be believed; and
(4) we should instead rely on sources hostile to The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints to properly understand Joseph’s translation effort.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote23sym" title="23. Spencer Kraus, “Jonathan Edwards’s Unique Role in an Imagined Church History,” Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 52 (2022): 65–66, https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/jonathan-edwardss-unique-role-in-an-imagined-ch"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">23</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’ll discuss
each of these in sequence below.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">As
Neville discusses each of the four points in depth, I will respond to him
accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Okay….<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">First,
Neville argues at length that Joseph memorized portions of Isaiah to recite
in his “demonstration” to the Whitmers (this appears to involve Neville’s
explanation 2) and continues to do so in his response. He falsely asserts
that the argument provided in my review “is a semantic mess because he argues
that Joseph read words off a seer stone instead of translating the Book of
Mormon record.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote24sym" title="24. Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 177."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">24</span></sup></a> Rather than respond
to my claims — including an analysis of the Masoretic text compared with the
Book of Mormon — Neville avoids discussion by claiming it to be a “semantic
mess,” without explanation.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote25sym" title="25. For my response to the claim that Joseph memorized and recited Isaiah from memory, see Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 19–24. This includes an analysis of multiple textual variants in the Book of Mormon with the Masoretic text."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">25</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I said Kraus’
argument is a semantic mess because he cites some of my examples but ignores
others. Then he finds a comment from John Tvedtnes to the effect that some of
the discrepancies between the KJV and BofM may reflect the Masoretic text,
but he ignores other differences between the Masoretic and the BofM. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus apparently
didn’t notice that I was using Royal Skousen’s part Five on the KJV. For
example, he says I “mistakenly” and “erroneously” identified variants in 2
Nephi 17:1 and 11, but I used Skousen’s reading in both cases.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Time is short
and there’s little use responding to Kraus’ sloppy scholarship. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Readers can
assess his points for themselves, but Kraus’ argument is incoherent because
he insists on the SITH scenario, which proposes that Joseph merely read words
off a stone, not that Joseph actually translated an ancient text. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">He
then claims I “forgot to quote” a passage of his book relating to his
Demonstration Hypothesis, although no real mistake was made on my part and
signifies mind-reading on the part of Neville.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote26sym" title="26. Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 177."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">26</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus claims
he intentionally didn’t quote a relevant passage, which is even worse than
forgetting to do so. <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville’s
argument that “it is impossible to determine what portion of the Book of
Mormon was being dictated”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote27sym" title="27. Ibid."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">27</span></sup></a> when
the seer stone was used is inconsequential, and did not merit an in-depth
response — of course it is impossible to date with exact precision any part
of the Book of Mormon translation and what tool was used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">It is “inconsequential”
only if one assumes Joseph used SITH throughout. Because Kraus embraces SITH,
his position is understandable. But his assertion here is incoherent, because
he previously endorsed DW’s claim that JS never received the U&T after he
lost the 116 pages. Thus, by Kraus’ own claims, there could have been no part
of the Book of Mormon that JS translated with the U&T (the interpreters
that came with the plates).<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">However,
Emma Smith and Elizabeth Ann Whitmer Cowdery relate observing Joseph using
the seer stone for extended periods of time — day after day and hours at
a </span><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page 192]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">time.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote28sym" title="28. See “Last Testimony of Sister Emma,” Saint’s Herald 26 (1 October 1879): 289; Elizabeth Ann Whitmer Cowdery, quoted in William W. McLellin, “My Dear Friends,” manuscript, February 1870, Community of Christ Library and Archives."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">28</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is not a
“however;” the accounts Kraus endorses say Joseph used SITH exclusively for
the text we have today.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
should offer a defense of why these timeframes provided by Emma and Elizabeth
should be discounted in favor of his proposed Demonstration Hypothesis
involving Joseph’s recitation of Isaiah, but he fails to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Neither
provided a “time frame” involving any dates or even days, let alone what JS
dictated during these alleged SITH sessions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I addressed
the credibility problems with Elizabeth’s purported affidavit (the original
doesn’t exist; all we have is the document McLellin claims he copied from the
original, but McLellin also insisted that JS never had the U&T).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I discussed the
evidentiary issues with Emma’s statements in detail.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
defends his claim that Joseph cited Isaiah by citing an article by Stan
Spencer that claims that many Isaiah variants do not offer substantial
differences to the meaning of Isaiah’s message.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote29sym" title="29. See Stan Spencer, “Missing Words: King James Bible Italics, the Translation of the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith as an Unlearned Reader,” Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 38 (2020): 45–106, https://journal.interprete"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">29</span></sup></a> Indeed, Spencer’s
analysis is true, but it is in no way indicative that Joseph memorized
Isaiah.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">As I said in
the book, Spencer’s observations are consistent with, but not determinative
of, Joseph reciting from memory. <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
further asserts that he believes Joseph memorized Isaiah, but does not deal
with my review wherein I compare many of his proposed “memorization errors”
to the Masoretic text in light of modern scholarship.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Addressed
above.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">I
conclude that many of the Isaiah variants in the Book of Mormon that Neville
believes were memorization errors are supported by ancient sources and would
therefore be better understood as a translation of an ancient text. Neville
would have done well to respond to my arguments rather than avoid them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I’m fine with
Kraus proposing an alternative. I, too, once accepted that idea. I always
encourage multiple working hypotheses.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Regarding
the Isaiah variants in the Book of Mormon, there must be a logical point
where coincidence for memorization errors matching ancient texts is too
fantastical a claim when weighed with the evidence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Some of the
memorization errors may coincidentally correspond to someone’s interpretation
of parts of the Masoretic text, but there is no one-to-one correspondence.
The BofM text doesn’t reflect all the differences between the KJV and other
interpretations of the Masoretic or other texts.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Unfortunately,
Neville continues to ignore the decades of scholarship on this issue in favor
of a single statement from Stan Spencer that he can use in a context Spencer
did not intend.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus’ inept analysis,
where he ignores Skousen’s work and most of the examples I gave, hardly justifies
more work on this issue, but I welcome him continuing to work on the topic if
he or others think it’s important.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">An
odd remark in Neville’s response is his declaration that “whatever Joseph was
doing with the seer stone, it was—by his own declarations—not translating the
plates.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote30sym" title="30. Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 178."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">30</span></sup></a> No citation is
offered, and I know of no declaration by Joseph that he never used a seer
stone to translate the Book of Mormon. Neville relies exclusively on his own
speculation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I cited
Joseph’s three explicit published statements that he translated the plates
with the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates. Maybe four statements
would have convinced Kraus? Or Five?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
also states that he “never wrote nor implied that Joseph tricked anyone.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote31sym" title="31. Ibid."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">31</span></sup></a> This
is an issue of semantics — Neville never explicitly writes in his books that
Joseph lied to anyone, nor does he use the word “tricked.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s hardly a
semantic issue. Words have meaning. <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">He
does, however, imply that Joseph did trick and lie to his </span><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page
193]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">close friends regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon.
This was not only done to the Whitmers, but to neighbors such as Jacob
Ingersoll, who Neville claims is a trustworthy source when he states that
Joseph informed him there were no actual gold plates.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote32sym" title="32. See Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 15–19, 26–28."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">32</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus may
have inferred that Joseph tricked/lied, but I never implied that.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Perhaps Kraus
is conflating my position with that of Royal Skousen, who has explicitly
stated that JS and OC deliberately misled everyone by claiming that JS
translated the plates with the U&T.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">That said,
yes, I do think JS probably misled the people who were trying to steal the
plates. Lucy Mack Smith relates Joseph’s use of a “sratigem” to scare off a
large company of men coming for the plates, and a few days later he fooled
another mob by putting an empty box under the floor of the cooper shop. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1844-1845/70">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1844-1845/70</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Regarding
Ingersoll’s claims that Joseph lied to a toll collector, Neville claims this
“demonstrates Joseph’s willingness to let others make inferences without correcting
them.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote33sym" title="33. Neville, A Man That Can Translate, 84."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">33</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Ingersoll
himself noted that JS didn’t lie, so why does Kraus frame JS as lying?<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> Joseph
comes out on top in this instance, without having had to pay for half of his
journey — hardly honest behavior. (This is contrasted with Joseph ensuring
that his debts were paid before leaving for Harmony later in life.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Hard to
fathom Kraus’ point here. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
next claims that “it seems plausible that Joseph would seek to deter [efforts
to steal the plates] </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">by spreading the word that he didn’t really
have plates.</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> A confidant such as Ingersoll would be an effective
method to spread such a rumor.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote34sym" title="34. Ibid., 85, emphasis added."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">34</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Again, see
the examples Lucy Mack Smith gave. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
would do well to recall that you do not have to say something explicitly to
discuss any certain principle; how one says something is just as important,
if not more so — he does not have to </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">say</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> Joseph
lied or tricked others about having the plates, he just has to say it </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">seems</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> like
Joseph said that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Again, hard
to fathom Kraus’ point. Did he think Joseph was supposed to tell the people
who were trying to steal the plates where they were, how much they weighed,
how much they were worth, etc?<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">The
word “lie” and “trick” were not specifically used, but for all intents and
purposes, that is exactly what Neville describes Joseph as doing. “Pious
fraud,” as critics often call Joseph’s actions, is still fraud, and there is
little that distinguishes Joseph lying about having plates and lying
about </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">not</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> having plates, since both were allegedly performed to
further his prophetic career.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">More of the
same incoherent argument.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
further insinuates that such trickery (although he fails to call it such)
occurred in relation to the witnesses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I didn’t call
it such because I don’t think it <i>was</i> such, as I explained in the book.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">He
claims that Martin Harris’s account of swapping the seer stone with one found
by the stream offers proof for his Demonstration Hypothesis:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 13.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">The way Martin tells
the story comes across as Joseph playing along with Martin’s test. He sits,
silently (as Martin infers he is unable to read anything on the stone). Then
he looks up and asks Martin what the problem was.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote35sym" title="35. Ibid., 182."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">35</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">There’s more
to this story than I put in AMTCT. The additional information is in my upcoming
book, co-authored with James Lucas. I’ll defer that discussion to that book’s
release.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Later,
Martin may have “realized Joseph was merely playing along with him,” but
still shares his experience anyway.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote36sym" title="36. Ibid., 183."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">36</span></sup></a> “Playing
along with” </span><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page 194]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Martin’s need for evidence through a “demonstration” is no
evidence at all, and would be more harmful to faith than helpful once Martin
learned the truth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Again, I’m
eager to delve into this more, but I’ll wait until the additional information
is published.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">While
Neville relates instances of the Prophet’s sense of humor as proof for his
alleged tendency “to let others make inferences,” the examples he cites are
wholly at odds with his certain desire to assuage Martin’s insecurities.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote37sym" title="37. See Neville, A Man That Can Translate, 83. The two examples Neville cites are Joseph’s humorous response in the Elder’s Journal that money digging “was never a very profitable job to him” and Joseph’s remarks to Joseph Knight Sr. the day he received t"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">37</span></sup></a> Joseph “playing
along” with Martin versus Joseph “tricking” Martin becomes merely an issue of
semantics.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">It was Martin
who sought to trick Joseph, not the other way around. How could Kraus have
overlooked this obvious point?<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">In
like measure, the same could be said for all of the witnesses who Neville
claims were left to “infer” that they were witnessing a translation.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote38sym" title="38. See Neville, A Man That Can Translate, 81."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">38</span></sup></a> While it might be
possible for Neville or his readers to claim that the Whitmers understood
this as a demonstration, such does not accord with the historical record or
Neville’s insistence that they simply inferred Joseph was translating when
they witnessed this proposed event. The above points are clearly laid out in
my review.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Notice that
throughout his review, Kraus doesn’t address the conflict between what JS and
OC said and what a few purported SITH witnesses said. He accepts the statements
of the SITH witnesses at face value without assessing the probative value of
the statements we have, and tries to persuade his readers that JS and OC,
contrary to what they wrote, actually meant to say that JS dictated the text
with his face in a hat, without using the plates.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">To accept the
way Kraus weighs the evidence, a rational person would inevitably reach the
same conclusion that Royal Skousen reached; i.e., that JS and OC intentionally
misled everyone.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">In my view,
JS and OC were direct and honest in what they reported. I also think the SITH
witnesses reported what they observed fairly accurately, but they inserted
their own inferences, assumptions, and hearsay as most witnesses do. That
doesn’t mean JS and OC misled anyone, as I explained in the book but Kraus
seems unable to comprehend.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This raises a
larger point. I long assumed that historians study the basic rules of
evidence used by lawyers, or some equivalent system of assessing the
probative value of witness statements. The way Kraus and his collaborators
have responded to my analysis, I’m less confident of that. Maybe they’re just
not historians. But frankly, the way other LDS historians have approached the
historical evidence suggests a serious inability to test witness statements.
It’s an ongoing problem.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">As a
final note regarding this important point, there is a large discrepancy
between Neville’s proposed method for the translation of the Book of Mormon
and Joseph’s alleged demonstration of such. Neville fails to consider why
Joseph must have felt obligated to use a stone in a hat when a pair of
spectacles borrowed from a neighbor would have sufficed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I think I
mentioned that Joseph’s contemporaries had faith in seer stones. There are accounts
of them asking him for a revelation and then asking him to use the stone, as
though they didn’t trust his words unless he used the stone. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">If
Joseph wanted to appease their curiosity regarding the translation method, a
device that resembles the Nephite interpreters would have been a much more
understandable approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The old “would
have” argument, which amounts to nothing other than what Kraus thinks he
would have done under the
circumstances.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">By
“demonstrating” the translation in a method completely at odds with what he
had actually done (and one which he would allegedly try to refute later in
life), Joseph is performing a dishonest action to get his friends to stop
bothering him. Whether intentionally or not, Neville has painted Joseph in a
negative light.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is the “outrage
theater” type of argument in which Kraus assume the role of deciding how
others would view Joseph Smith based on the historical evidence.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">In terms of “negative
light,” we need look no further than Mormonism Unvailed and its SITH
explanation. Yet Kraus embraces the SITH narrative.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">By now, many Latter-day
Saints are familiar with the SITH-promoting critics such as CES Letter,
Mormon Stories, and many others. That these SITH promoters have been joined
by the scholars, students, and followers of FAIRLDS, the Interpreter, and
Book of Mormon Central is one of the astonishing developments of our day. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">In my view,
affirming what JS and OC said about the translation of the plates with the
U&T is the most positive interpretation of the historical evidence
possible.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Third,
Neville does not respond to any of my in-depth analyses regarding his claims
about the various witnesses to the translation where I claim that Neville
argues they should not be believed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I did look at
his “in-depth” analysis and responded to some in my separate review, but that
didn’t make the cut for my brief Interpreter response, both due to time and
space, and due to relevancy. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">He
states that these witnesses merely inferred that a translation was occurring,
but his </span><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page 195]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">historical analysis is fundamentally flawed. As he has not
responded to any of my arguments, I would simply refer the reader to my
review.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote39sym" title="39. See Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 31–44."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">39</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Sure…<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Fourth,
Neville claims that “it’s difficult to know what to make of this allegation”
that we ought to believe sources critical of Joseph per Neville’s analysis.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote40sym" title="40. Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 179."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">40</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Exactly. Why
does Kraus give more credence to DW than to JS and OC?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Why does
Kraus cite a hearsay attribution to OC, made by harsh opponents of JS and the
Book of Mormon, as we saw above in this response?<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">A
lengthy portion of my review, however, deals with that exclusively — Neville
defends affidavits in </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Mormonism Unvailed</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">,
defends his use of Mormonism Research Ministry, and attacks multiple sources
published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote41sym" title="41. See Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 25–31."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">41</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is another
example of what I mean when I say historians (or whatever Kraus is) are
unable or unwilling to assess historical statements.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The
provenance of a statement is only one of many factors to consider. I don’t “defend”
or “attack” affidavits based solely on the source, as I explained repeatedly
in the book. The reason I cited MRM for Journal of Discourses is they did a
good job making JD accessible. They didn’t change the text. Actually, had I
cited the less useful BYU resource, non-LDS critics sharing Kraus’ mentality
would reject my citations. Why anyone cares who provides the historical
reference (assuming it is accurately presented) is inexplicable.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">By “multiple
sources published by the Church” Kraus cites Ensign articles and the Gospel
Topics essays. Obviously, I don’t attack the publications; I point out
factual errors and omissions with the hope of improving future material. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The story of
the Gospel Topics essays deserves more analysis than I can provide here, but
I did discuss it here:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><a href="http://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2022/09/analysis-gospel-topics-essay-on-book-of.html">http://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2022/09/analysis-gospel-topics-essay-on-book-of.html</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> (Indeed,
it is ironic that he should again claim in his review that I parrot </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Mormonism
Unvailed</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> regarding the translation, when I clearly lay out my
arguments against using </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Mormonism Unvailed </span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">apologetically
as he does in his books.)<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote42sym" title="42. See Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 174–75."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">42</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">If Kraus can
explain the difference between the SITH narrative that I quoted from <i>Mormonism
Unvailed</i> and his own SITH narrative, I’d like to see that in a side-by-side
format.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> Neville
should be under the onus, in a defense of his work, to offer some explanation
why he had done so, but none is offered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I’ve done so
repeatedly.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Regarding
my review of </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Infinite Goodness</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">, Neville states that
my conclusions are flawed because I did not “not consult [Neville’s] database
of over 1,000 nonbiblical terms and phrases used by Edwards” nor did I cite
his “separate biblical intertextual database.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote43sym" title="43. Ibid., 180–81."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">43</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Which is
true.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> Neither
of these were available at the time I wrote my reviews, although upon review
it is easily determined that his databases suffer from many of the same
problems that his appendices in </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">Infinite Goodness </span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">do. A
single word — sometimes just a different conjugation of a verb or alternative
spelling — or phrase is poor “proof” for intertextuality.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote44sym" title="44. See Kraus, “Jonathan Edwards’s Unique Role,” 79–87. His appendices are discussed especially on p. 79."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">44</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">They were
available had Kraus requested them.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">In the book I
pointed out that a single word is not “proof” of intertextuality because English
is a common language; i.e., everyone uses the same words or they wouldn’t have
a common meaning.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Intertextuality
has two basic meaning:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="module--definitionsdefinition" style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 42.0pt; margin-right: 6.0pt; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: inherit; mso-fareast-font-family: inherit;">1.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;">The idea that a given <a href="https://www.wordnik.com/words/text" style="font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit;"><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #00278e; padding: 0in; text-decoration-line: none;">text</span></a> is
a <a href="https://www.wordnik.com/words/response" style="font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit;"><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #00278e; padding: 0in; text-decoration-line: none;">response</span></a> to what has already been <a href="https://www.wordnik.com/words/written" style="font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit;"><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #00278e; padding: 0in; text-decoration-line: none;">written</span></a>,
be it <a href="https://www.wordnik.com/words/explicit" style="font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit;"><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #00278e; padding: 0in; text-decoration-line: none;">explicit</span></a> or <a href="https://www.wordnik.com/words/implicit" style="font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit;"><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #00278e; padding: 0in; text-decoration-line: none;">implicit</span></a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="module--definitionsdefinition" style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 42.0pt; margin-right: 6.0pt; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: inherit; mso-fareast-font-family: inherit;">2.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;">The <a href="https://www.wordnik.com/words/reference" style="font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit;"><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #00278e; padding: 0in; text-decoration-line: none;">reference</span></a> to
another <a href="https://www.wordnik.com/words/separate" style="font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit;"><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #00278e; padding: 0in; text-decoration-line: none;">separate</span></a> and <a href="https://www.wordnik.com/words/distinct" style="font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit;"><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #00278e; padding: 0in; text-decoration-line: none;">distinct</span></a> text
within a text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I’ve offered
numerous examples of both types of intertextuality.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The Edwards
intertextuality started with an analysis of the non-biblical language in the
Book of Mormon. To corroborate Joseph’s claim that he translated the text, I
sought evidence of the source of his lexicon. My hypothesis was that the
sources would be local; i.e., in Palmyra pre-1829. The Palmyra newspapers
contained some of the non-biblical lexicon, but the Edwards material provided
almost all of the rest. Anyone who consults the database can see it consists
of far more than “a single word.”<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
also claims that my “review invokes sources not known to be readily available
to Joseph Smith,” thus weakening my conclusions.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote45sym" title="45. Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 181."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">45</span></sup></a> However, as I point
out in my review, the use of these sources is done to demonstrate that the
words and phrases that Neville sees as influenced by Edwards do not originate
with Edwards and reflected a wider religious tradition.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote46sym" title="46. I conclude my review by stating that “Even [Neville’s] best suggestions are weak — they consist of phrases common in the religious literature and discourses of three centuries.” Kraus, “Jonathan Edwards’s Unique Role,” 88."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">46</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">The use of
sources not readily available to Joseph Smith hardly demonstrates that these
sources were available to Joseph Smith.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">These
words and phrases were in the common vernacular, and it does not require any
theological treatise to have been consulted on Joseph’s part. That Neville
appears to believe I would argue that Joseph </span><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page
196]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">was familiar with each of the sources I cite (such as Martin
Luther) underscores how little he understood my arguments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">To show these
words and phrases were “in the common vernacular” by citing references that
were not available to Joseph Smith is irrational.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">We won’t know
whether Kraus could have found available sources for much of the non-biblical
lexicon and concepts unless he continues his research.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Finally,
in Neville’s response, he argues that believing that Joseph used a seer stone
links the Book of Mormon to “mystical origins”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote47sym" title="47. Neville, “A Response to Recent Reviews,” 182."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">47</span></sup></a> that can lead to
false claims regarding its nature. This is a false dichotomy yet again — the
Urim and Thummim provide the same “mystical origins” that a seer stone would
provide. What Neville fails to consider is how </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">his</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> definition
of translation differs from mainstream Latter-day Saint thought since 1830.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">If, as he
claimed, Joseph translated the engravings on the plates, there is no “mystical
origin” because we know the origin.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">By contrast,
if the only source of the text was words that appeared on a stone in the hat
(SITH), there is zero demonstrable connection with a real-world source.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">For some faithful
Latter-day Saints, this is fine. Some even claim SITH is a feature, not a
bug, because the mystical origin narrative appeals to them. I have no
argument with that approach. If it works for someone, that’s fine with me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I merely
observe that people of all religious beliefs rely on mystical origins of this
nature.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">For me, the unique
feature that JS and OC provide is a direct link to an actual historical
record. They not only explained it; their narrative is canonized in the
D&C and PGP. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Replacing
their narrative with SITH is problematic because, to do so, SITH sayers
simply omit (censor) what JS and OC wrote. Kraus doesn’t even quote or
address what they wrote. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">“Mainstream”
LDS thought since 1830 has always been what JS and OC claimed, not SITH.
Until recently…<o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">In </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">A
Man That Can Translate</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">, Neville argues that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 13.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Joseph translated the
engravings on the plates in the ordinary sense of the word …. The translation
was inspired both because of the aid of the interpreters and because,
although Joseph had to study it out in his mind (D&C 9:8), the
Spirit confirmed the translation he came up with as he dictated it to his
scribe. Viewed in this way, the idea that Joseph actually translated the Nephite
records into English seems obvious.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote48sym" title="48. Neville, A Man That Can Translate, 193–94."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">48</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Note Kraus’
ellipses here, which omit most of the page he cites.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville
does not offer an explanation as to how, should Joseph have been performing a
scholarly translation, the Urim and Thummim would truly be used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Haha, Kraus’
ellipses omit my explanation for why he needed the Urim and Thummim!<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">An
inference many readers might make is that the interpreters became incidental
to the translation process, which is further strengthened by his claims that
Joseph could have “ended previous [translating] sessions at the bottom of a
particular plate” in an effort to explain how Joseph could reportedly begin
translating from where he left off, as witnesses such as Emma Smith
testified.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote49sym" title="49. Ibid., 241."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">49</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Naturally,
readers can make any inference they want, but I never said or implied that
the interpreters were incidental.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Ending a
session at the bottom of a plate would be a natural place to stop, but has no
implications for the importance of the Urim and Thummim. <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<tr>
<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">A
scholarly translation of the plates removes the mystical origins from the
Book of Mormon, ultimately providing a disservice to the book of scripture.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote50sym" title="50. See Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 11–15."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">50</span></sup></a> By making the Book
of Mormon a scholarly feat rather than a divine translation as described by
Joseph, Neville’s historical analysis falters in multiple points.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus keeps
using his term, “scholarly translation.” Nowhere did I state, imply, or
suggest that JS engaged in a “scholarly translation.” <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Surely Kraus
doesn’t actually expect me to respond to his straw man argument here.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My
two reviews offer many other claims that Neville does not mention. Many of
these are critical to his theses, and as such a defense of them is warranted
on Neville’s part.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is the
fun part. The Interpreter wanted a short response, which I provided, and then
refused when I offered a longer, more detailed response to Kraus’ challenge
here.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Examples
include:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page
197]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">His presentism when discussing the word “peruse” in Lucy Mack
Smith’s history<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote51sym" title="51. See Kraus, “Jonathan Edwards’s Unique Role,” 66–71."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">51</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">It's not “presentism”
to use contemporary sources dating to the early 1800s.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Why
Joseph should be understood as having great literary capacities when his own
testimony and the testimonies of his family suggest otherwise<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote52sym" title="52. See ibid., 66–71."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">52</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">If by “great
literary capacities” Kraus means ability to memorize, there’s an article on
that topic soon to be published that explains it more thoroughly than this
response does. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My
rebuttal to Neville’s claim that Jonathan Edwards was an Elias figure to
Joseph<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote53sym" title="53. See ibid., 71–73."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">53</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus identifies
another Elias figure, but inexplicably insists there can be only one.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My
critique of the proposed theological influences that Jonathan Edwards had on
Joseph Smith, such as the doctrine of plural marriage (of which Joseph’s
revelations and Edwards’s sermons are deeply at odds with one another)<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote54sym" title="54. See ibid., 73–79. The claim regarding plural marriage is rebutted on pp. 76–77."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">54</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is a side
issue that Kraus doesn’t handle effectively anyway.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My
critique of the various errors in Neville’s proposed intertextuality with
Edwards, all of which are considerably weak<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote55sym" title="55. See ibid., 79–87."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">55</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus’
cursory review is intellectually lazy.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My
response to Neville regarding chiasmus in the Book of Mormon being another
influence of Jonathan Edwards on Joseph Smith<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote56sym" title="56. See ibid., 86."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">56</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Another weak
argument not worth addressing.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My
response to Neville’s weak conclusions regarding additional outside
influences on the Book of Mormon, including <i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">The Late War</span></i> merely
because (when comparing it to the Book of Mormon), “In both cases, we have
a Title Page, a Copyright Page, and a Preface.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote57sym" title="57. Neville, Infinite Goodness, 190. See also 191–93. I respond to this in Kraus, “Jonathan Edwards’s Unique Role,” 87–88."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">57</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Another lazy
argument. The design similarities were insignificant, as Kraus says, but Kraus
forgets to mention that I pointed out that <i>The Late War</i> contains an
endorsement by Samuel L. Mitchill, the New York Professor whom Martin Harris
visited to solicit a similar endorsement. Readers can decide whether it is
likely JS would have read a book written for his age group that involved the
War of 1812 which by proximity to both Vermont and Palmyra was the equivalent
to JS of the 9/11 attacks in New York City to someone living in 2001.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Neville’s
misuse of Alma 37’s reference to a seer stone in regard to both modern
scholarship and historical sources<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote58sym" title="58. See Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 7–9."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">58</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Multiple
working hypotheses…<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My
response to Neville’s conflation of the seer stone with Skousen and Carmack’s
theories regarding Early Modern English in the Book of Mormon<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote59sym" title="59. See ibid., 10–11."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">59</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Skousen and
Carmack insist that JS was not the English translator. That’s the point of
their EME theory. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My
critique of Neville’s definition of “translation” and how it differs from
Joseph’s definition<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote60sym" title="60. See ibid., 11–15."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">60</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">JS never “defined”
translation. Kraus makes a series of assumptions about what JS meant.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #aaaaaa; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">[Page
198]</span><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">My critique of Neville’s use of David Whitmer to argue for a
large “demonstration,” when David’s statement Neville cites from does not
support such a reading (this includes Neville’s erroneous belief that David
described the seer stone in this purported demonstration, when the record
states that the “spectacles” were used)<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote61sym" title="61. See ibid., 16–19."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">61</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus keeps
framing this newspaper article as David Whitmer’s statement. This was not
David’s statement but a reporter’s account, published in a newspaper, as I
pointed out. As such, it was an accumulation of information published as a
narrative. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Other accounts
referred to the “spectacles,” but as I explained, the witnesses could not
have viewed the U&T because Joseph was commanded not to display them. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">This leaves
us with sorting through the article to ascertain what was credible and what
was not. Again, multiple working hypotheses.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Perhaps JS used
common spectacles or the stone for the demonstration. DW and Emma separately
said JS used only the stone after losing the 116 pages, but if we believe JS
and OC, we know what DW and Emma said was false.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 66.0pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: baseline;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-size: 14.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;">§<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">In
addition to my analysis of Isaiah variants that better reflect ancient
manuscript evidence rather than memorization errors, Neville has made
multiple transcription errors regarding Isaiah in the Book of Mormon that
deserve acknowledgment<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote62sym" title="62. See ibid., 19–25 for the full discussion regarding Nephi’s use of an ancient version of Isaiah in 2 Nephi. For Neville’s transcription errors specifically, see ibid., 22–23. Only a handful of scriptures Neville cites were used in my response to highli"><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">62</span></sup></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">We discussed
this above. Kraus forgot that I explained I used Skousen’s part Five.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">BTW, in Part
5 Skousen also wrote, “I show that in nearly every case the biblical
quotations in the Book of Mormon come from the King James Bible instead of
from earlier biblical translations dating from the 1500s… Taking the
variation in the italicized words into account, we can narrow down the copytext
to a King James edition printed between the 1770s and the 1820s.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">Ultimately,
Neville’s response to my two reviews is weak. He does not deal directly with
the substance of my arguments, instead doubling down on his claims provided
in his two books.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">As I
explained above, I wrote a short response at the request of the Interpreter,
and I focused on the key point that SITH contradicts what JS and OC said.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Kraus glides
over that fundamental problem, both here and in his original reviews.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">Many of Kraus’
arguments, as I’ve pointed out in this response, involve his own straw men,
red herrings, and lazy analysis. His other arguments involve alternative
hypotheses and interpretations, which are fine with me.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: 24.0pt; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">This
is troublesome behavior for one who claims to be open-minded and willing to
discuss anything he has overlooked or mistaken.<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote63sym" title="63. See Neville, A Man That Can Translate, 21."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">63</span></sup></a> As I discussed in the
conclusion to my review of </span><i><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #373737; font-family: "inherit",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; padding: 0in;">A Man That Can Translate</span></i><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">,
“History … is written through the careful analysis of documents in their
context and against a wide array of evidence.”<a href="https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/a-rejoinder-to-jonathan-nevilles-response-to-recent-reviews/#footnote64sym" title="64. Kraus, “An Unfortunate Approach,” 44."><sup><span style="border: none windowtext 1.0pt; color: #9e292d; font-size: 9.0pt; mso-border-alt: none windowtext 0in; padding: 0in;">64</span></sup></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I’m happy to
discuss serious criticism, but not lazy research or logical fallacies. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">That’s why I’m
happy for readers to discuss multiple working hypotheses.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">In the
future, I recommend that Kraus and other reviewers address my actual
arguments instead of their rephrasing and rewriting of my arguments.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #373737; font-family: "Palatino Linotype",serif; font-size: 14.5pt; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">This
includes determining the method in which Joseph translated the plates,
especially in light of Joseph’s few references to the method throughout his
life. Neville is under no imperative to accept any of my conclusions, of
course — but he has not adequately dealt with my arguments in his response
nor has he adequately dealt with the historical evidence regarding Joseph’s
translation of ancient scripture.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">I invite
readers to consider all the evidence, along with the ensuing multiple working
hypotheses. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">But I also
invite readers to begin by studying what JS and OC actually left us, in full
context. Then read what their fellow apostles declared, both their contemporaries
and their successors. Only then, if readers are curious, should they veer into
the self-contradictory, hearsay statements that contradict what JS and OC said.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">And I invite
readers to leave the musings of scholars, LDS and otherwise, to the scholars
to debate among themselves.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">But I
encourage full consideration of multiple working hypotheses, always pending additional
information.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-top: none; border: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="border-bottom: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-left: none; border-right: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top: none; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; width: 233.75pt;" valign="top" width="312">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table><p>
</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-62319106563407000042022-11-04T08:35:00.004-07:002022-11-04T08:35:32.495-07:00Peer review vs peer approval - again<p>In theory, peer review leads to improved work. In practice, it too often constitutes peer approval instead of peer review.</p><p>Peer approval serves to reinforce groupthink among like-minded academics and intellectuals. Students are enamored with their professors and mentors. They seek to please those who bestow credentials and can advance their careers.</p><p>The <i>Interpreter</i> is a notorious example. Hence, this blog. I don't have time to conduct peer reviews of most <i>Interpreter</i> articles, but I've done enough in this blog for readers to see examples of peer approval vs. peer review. Careful readers can spot the unstated assumptions in the work of the citation cartel.</p><p>I'll post an awesome example soon. In the meantime, here's an illustration of the process. </p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjdBemSFk0ru-NeTKbfYG9PUU1bM1pzsgCe1yqLmoxmfjqJzTi2rdRA5ryDMsXCXQLo8qfGT6B8piUhjaZYsSPO4vz8ZDIRkqvajGjclMsPqH7IvIE16JO5scKq2zpuPa_6S1N6jufO_tuVTBrXDuhWZiLxTIYM2TmwRmZ47rPVOZl8iTxx47SwfzmZ/s1125/2%20plus%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="731" data-original-width="1125" height="260" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjdBemSFk0ru-NeTKbfYG9PUU1bM1pzsgCe1yqLmoxmfjqJzTi2rdRA5ryDMsXCXQLo8qfGT6B8piUhjaZYsSPO4vz8ZDIRkqvajGjclMsPqH7IvIE16JO5scKq2zpuPa_6S1N6jufO_tuVTBrXDuhWZiLxTIYM2TmwRmZ47rPVOZl8iTxx47SwfzmZ/w400-h260/2%20plus%202.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">(Click to enlarge)</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p>_____</p><p>Allan Savory is well-known because of his TED talk on grazing animals. </p><p><a href="https://www.ted.com/speakers/allan_savory" target="_blank">https://www.ted.com/speakers/allan_savory</a></p><p>His approach is controversial, usually because his critics use the straw man approach of attacking scenarios different from what Savory advocates.</p><p>Here, he explains his experience with peer reviews.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><iframe allowfullscreen='allowfullscreen' webkitallowfullscreen='webkitallowfullscreen' mozallowfullscreen='mozallowfullscreen' width='320' height='266' src='https://www.blogger.com/video.g?token=AD6v5dyVZHme9vGp7yaRmwHomrL8rVxVQ2_3OyHFtM_l8tZbWA-4z-I64bXIttOqe3Bpp1a2jtcHxZh_Y0Q82TKbzg' class='b-hbp-video b-uploaded' frameborder='0'></iframe></div><br /><p>h/t <a href="https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1588424171142324224" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1588424171142324224</a></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-78446676334429342472022-10-18T01:25:00.000-07:002022-10-18T01:25:06.551-07:00ARCs and the Interpreter<p>This Twitter thread reminds me of my experience with Matt Roper, Jeff Bradshaw, and the <i>Interpreter</i> years ago when I gave Matt an ARC to discuss with me but instead he used it to write 3 articles for the Interpreter, one published the morning of my joint appearance with him at the John Whitmer Historical Association, that publication date timed so I couldn't respond. Last I heard, Matt now works at Book of Mormon Central, whose employees continue this type of practice.</p><p><a href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130166771290112" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130166771290112</a></p><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-15zivkp" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; background-color: white; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1iusvr4 r-16y2uox r-1777fci" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-flex: 1; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: column; flex: 1 0 0px; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-k4xj1c r-18u37iz r-1wtj0ep" style="-webkit-box-align: start; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: justify; align-items: start; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: space-between; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__5vh822t6742" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1h0z5md" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="menu" aria-label="More" class="css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1777fci r-bt1l66 r-1ny4l3l r-bztko3 r-lrvibr" data-testid="caret" role="button" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 20px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px; position: relative; user-select: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="0"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-14j79pv r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-1h0z5md r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-o7ynqc r-clp7b1 r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; 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box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1habvwh" style="-webkit-box-align: start; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: flex-start; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1s2bzr4" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 12px 0px 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-1blvdjr r-16dba41 r-vrz42v r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__knyvkhzw7d" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 23px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 28px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">A short story about unethical and unprofessional behavior by apologists, in particular the </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</a></span></div><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">: 1/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-1blvdjr r-16dba41 r-vrz42v r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__knyvkhzw7d" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 23px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 28px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-1blvdjr r-16dba41 r-vrz42v r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__knyvkhzw7d" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 23px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 28px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; 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z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-k4xj1c r-18u37iz r-1wtj0ep" style="-webkit-box-align: start; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: justify; align-items: start; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: space-between; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__jt73jwsuv3" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-1ddef8g r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: underline; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130232173027328" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:03:36.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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-webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-block; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" id="id__9pw5he9s1rw" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Replying to <div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></a></div> <span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">and</span></span> <div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</span></a></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__lvbaqbu6z2s" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">In Feb. of this year author Jeff Bradshaw asked for an advance reading copy (ARC) of "Method Infinite: Freemasonry and the Mormon Restoration" set to be published in August, hoping to get one ASAP so that he would have time to review it for the </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</a></span></div><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"> by it's release. 2/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__lvbaqbu6z2s" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; 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overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__wlq5zmg3cek" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">The next month, Bradshaw was the first person to receive an ARC of the volume. He thanked me for it and said he was eager to read and review the book. I thought nothing more of it. 3/</span></div></div></div></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__lvbaqbu6z2s" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__lvbaqbu6z2s" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; 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padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; 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max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130376264196097" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; 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z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__squ5803r9fr" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Imagine my surprise in the first week of August when the </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</a></span></div><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"> announces a new book entitled "Freemasonry and the Origins of Latter-day Saint Temple Ordinances," by Bradshaw, and scheduled to be released August 13th--four days after the release of Method Infinite. 4/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__squ5803r9fr" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; 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min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:04:24.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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white-space: inherit;">That Bradshaw did not disclose to me when asking for an ARC that he was working on a competing book that would be published the same week as Method Infinite seemed to me to be incredibly unethical and unprofessional. But it gets worse. 5/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__cgwsughuzgl" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__cgwsughuzgl" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; 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padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130498607886336" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; 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z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__o8ovyo76wbe" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">According to Bradshaw, the reason he did not disclose this to me was because when he asked for the ARC, he was not yet planning to write his book. Instead, he said the idea to write his book did come until the end of May--two months after receiving the ARC. 6/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__o8ovyo76wbe" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__o8ovyo76wbe" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; 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padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; 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max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130560909996034" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; 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z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__mm0k1xilqzn" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">If Bradshaw is being honest about the reason for not disclosing it, this means that his 550+ page book was written, edited, formatted, and published in less than 3 months. Draw your own conclusions of why they would rush this book to be released at that time. 7/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__mm0k1xilqzn" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__mm0k1xilqzn" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; 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flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130606980243456" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:05:05.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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white-space: inherit;">That Bradshaw used the ARC for his book is clear by Method Infinite being quoted and referenced throughout its pages, at least 15 times--some favorable, some critical. 8/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__ebo1oabskdk" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; 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flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130689780039680" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); 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min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Whether Bradshaw was already writing his book and failed to disclose it, or if he had decided to write his own later, to use that ARC so that he and the </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</a></span></div><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"> could release their competing book within a week of Method Infinite is abhorrent. 9/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__iv09ieissp" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; 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-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__bcupx0ci1mp" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-1ddef8g r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: underline; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130739398684672" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:05:37.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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white-space: inherit;">As you can guess, Bradshaw has not yet written his review, claiming that he has not had sufficient time--despite supposedly having enough rare time to use that ARC to completely write a 550+ page book. 10/</span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__cgwsughuzgl" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; 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outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__ptzo5h5lwjs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-1ddef8g r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: underline; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130802594263040" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:05:52.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; 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min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="menu" aria-label="More" class="css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1777fci r-bt1l66 r-1ny4l3l r-bztko3 r-lrvibr" data-testid="caret" role="button" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 20px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px; position: relative; user-select: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="0"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-14j79pv r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-1h0z5md r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-o7ynqc r-clp7b1 r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; justify-content: flex-start; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: color; white-space: nowrap;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1niwhzg r-sdzlij r-1p0dtai r-xoduu5 r-1d2f490 r-xf4iuw r-1ny4l3l r-u8s1d r-zchlnj r-ipm5af r-o7ynqc r-6416eg" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border-radius: 9999px; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; inset: 0px; margin: -8px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: absolute; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: background-color, box-shadow; z-index: 0;"></div><svg aria-hidden="true" class="r-4qtqp9 r-yyyyoo r-1xvli5t r-dnmrzs r-bnwqim r-1plcrui r-lrvibr r-1hdv0qi" viewbox="0 0 24 24"><g><circle cx="5" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="12" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="19" cy="12" r="2"></circle></g></svg></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__oke0wlblvvn" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">While I have philosophical concerns about the inherent purpose of religious apologetics, and have had my past beef with the </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</a></span></div><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"> and it's key founder, for the past several years I have sought to bury any hatchets there and maintain a cordial relationship. 11/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__oke0wlblvvn" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; 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padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-k4xj1c r-18u37iz r-1wtj0ep" style="-webkit-box-align: start; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: justify; align-items: start; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: space-between; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__sfho134kw6" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130852850302978" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:06:04.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1h0z5md" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="menu" aria-label="More" class="css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1777fci r-bt1l66 r-1ny4l3l r-bztko3 r-lrvibr" data-testid="caret" role="button" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 20px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px; position: relative; user-select: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="0"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-14j79pv r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-1h0z5md r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-o7ynqc r-clp7b1 r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; justify-content: flex-start; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: color; white-space: nowrap;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1niwhzg r-sdzlij r-1p0dtai r-xoduu5 r-1d2f490 r-xf4iuw r-1ny4l3l r-u8s1d r-zchlnj r-ipm5af r-o7ynqc r-6416eg" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border-radius: 9999px; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; inset: 0px; margin: -8px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: absolute; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: background-color, box-shadow; z-index: 0;"></div><svg aria-hidden="true" class="r-4qtqp9 r-yyyyoo r-1xvli5t r-dnmrzs r-bnwqim r-1plcrui r-lrvibr r-1hdv0qi" viewbox="0 0 24 24"><g><circle cx="5" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="12" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="19" cy="12" r="2"></circle></g></svg></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__wxvzzvwx8n" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">And despite my disagreements, I am friends with and have maintained mutual collaborative relationships with other apologetic organizations such as </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/bofmcentral" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@bofmcentral</a></span></div><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"> and the folks at the </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/ldsfair" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@ldsfair</a></span></div><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"> store. 12/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__wxvzzvwx8n" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__wxvzzvwx8n" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-k4xj1c r-18u37iz r-1wtj0ep" style="-webkit-box-align: start; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: justify; align-items: start; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: space-between; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__9xcy5rjt4o" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582130983465234432" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:06:35.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1h0z5md" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="menu" aria-label="More" class="css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1777fci r-bt1l66 r-1ny4l3l r-bztko3 r-lrvibr" data-testid="caret" role="button" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 20px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px; position: relative; user-select: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="0"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-14j79pv r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-1h0z5md r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-o7ynqc r-clp7b1 r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; justify-content: flex-start; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; 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transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: background-color, box-shadow; z-index: 0;"></div><svg aria-hidden="true" class="r-4qtqp9 r-yyyyoo r-1xvli5t r-dnmrzs r-bnwqim r-1plcrui r-lrvibr r-1hdv0qi" viewbox="0 0 24 24"><g><circle cx="5" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="12" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="19" cy="12" r="2"></circle></g></svg></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__bakjluq1hgw" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Because of the all too common use of ad hominem and personal attacks in the </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</a></span></div><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"> book reviews, I was already hesitant to provide them with any review copies. This has solidified that hesitancy. 13/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__bakjluq1hgw" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__bakjluq1hgw" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; 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align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; 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box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582131059642101760" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:06:53.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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white-space: inherit;">It had never crossed my mind to tell authors receiving an ARC that it was contingent upon them not using it to write a competing book that they intended to release at the same time of the book they claimed to be reviewing. 14/</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__n6h3fj527ns" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__n6h3fj527ns" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: space-between; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__vfxctix5vy" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-1ddef8g r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: underline; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582131136825683968" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:07:12.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1h0z5md" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="menu" aria-label="More" class="css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1777fci r-bt1l66 r-1ny4l3l r-bztko3 r-lrvibr" data-testid="caret" role="button" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 20px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px; position: relative; user-select: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="0"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-14j79pv r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-1h0z5md r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-o7ynqc r-clp7b1 r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; justify-content: flex-start; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: color; white-space: nowrap;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1niwhzg r-sdzlij r-1p0dtai r-xoduu5 r-1d2f490 r-xf4iuw r-1ny4l3l r-u8s1d r-zchlnj r-ipm5af r-o7ynqc r-6416eg" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border-radius: 9999px; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; inset: 0px; margin: -8px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: absolute; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: background-color, box-shadow; z-index: 0;"></div><svg aria-hidden="true" class="r-4qtqp9 r-yyyyoo r-1xvli5t r-dnmrzs r-bnwqim r-1plcrui r-lrvibr r-1hdv0qi" viewbox="0 0 24 24"><g><circle cx="5" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="12" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="19" cy="12" r="2"></circle></g></svg></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__8k7b67f1ipw" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">But I guess I have egg on my face for expecting Bradshaw and the </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</a></span></div><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"> to follow basic ethical, professional, and academic integrity. Fin. 15/15</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__8k7b67f1ipw" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__8k7b67f1ipw" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; 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padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-k4xj1c r-18u37iz r-1wtj0ep" style="-webkit-box-align: start; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: justify; align-items: start; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: space-between; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; 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align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Loyd Ericson</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582134482974306310" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:20:30.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: background-color, box-shadow; z-index: 0;"></div><svg aria-hidden="true" class="r-4qtqp9 r-yyyyoo r-1xvli5t r-dnmrzs r-bnwqim r-1plcrui r-lrvibr r-1hdv0qi" viewbox="0 0 24 24"><g><circle cx="5" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="12" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="19" cy="12" r="2"></circle></g></svg></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__wg72uhpm55p" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">BTW, "Method Infinite" is now available in paperback. I'm obviously biased, but I think it's one of the most important books published in the past few decades on understanding Joseph Smith and early Mormonism.</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__wg72uhpm55p" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__wg72uhpm55p" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; 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line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38/status/1582134667154583552" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T22:21:13.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1h0z5md" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="menu" aria-label="More" class="css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1777fci r-bt1l66 r-1ny4l3l r-bztko3 r-lrvibr" data-testid="caret" role="button" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 20px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px; position: relative; user-select: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="0"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-14j79pv r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-1h0z5md r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-o7ynqc r-clp7b1 r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; justify-content: flex-start; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: color; white-space: nowrap;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1niwhzg r-sdzlij r-1p0dtai r-xoduu5 r-1d2f490 r-xf4iuw r-1ny4l3l r-u8s1d r-zchlnj r-ipm5af r-o7ynqc r-6416eg" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border-radius: 9999px; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; inset: 0px; margin: -8px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: absolute; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: background-color, box-shadow; z-index: 0;"></div><svg aria-hidden="true" class="r-4qtqp9 r-yyyyoo r-1xvli5t r-dnmrzs r-bnwqim r-1plcrui r-lrvibr r-1hdv0qi" viewbox="0 0 24 24"><g><circle cx="5" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="12" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="19" cy="12" r="2"></circle></g></svg></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__viduvqr71j" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Apologists call it critical, and critics call it apologetic. I think it hit the right spot.</span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__viduvqr71j" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__viduvqr71j" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-k4xj1c r-18u37iz r-1wtj0ep" style="-webkit-box-align: start; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: justify; align-items: start; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: space-between; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__tscvw07rj8" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/dinger_john" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-1ddef8g r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: underline; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">John Dinger</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/dinger_john" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@dinger_john</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="8 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/dinger_john/status/1582150994364092417" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T23:26:06.000Z">8h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1h0z5md" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="menu" aria-label="More" class="css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1777fci r-bt1l66 r-1ny4l3l r-bztko3 r-lrvibr" data-testid="caret" role="button" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 20px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px; position: relative; user-select: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="0"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-14j79pv r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-1h0z5md r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-o7ynqc r-clp7b1 r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; justify-content: flex-start; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: color; white-space: nowrap;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1niwhzg r-sdzlij r-1p0dtai r-xoduu5 r-1d2f490 r-xf4iuw r-1ny4l3l r-u8s1d r-zchlnj r-ipm5af r-o7ynqc r-6416eg" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border-radius: 9999px; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; inset: 0px; margin: -8px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: absolute; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: background-color, box-shadow; z-index: 0;"></div><svg aria-hidden="true" class="r-4qtqp9 r-yyyyoo r-1xvli5t r-dnmrzs r-bnwqim r-1plcrui r-lrvibr r-1hdv0qi" viewbox="0 0 24 24"><g><circle cx="5" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="12" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="19" cy="12" r="2"></circle></g></svg></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-4qtqp9 r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-block; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" id="id__oj3mn5ru4sq" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Replying to <div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></a></div> <span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">and</span></span> <div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</span></a></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__11z7b5kpbzyq" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">I'm having trouble deciding who is worse, Interpreter or Mormonr. What a week for theft.</span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__n6h3fj527ns" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-k4xj1c r-18u37iz r-1wtj0ep" style="-webkit-box-align: start; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: justify; align-items: start; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: space-between; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__lnpfcuq0kum" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/calvinjburke" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-18jsvk2 r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-b88u0q r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-1udh08x r-1ddef8g r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-align: center; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: underline; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Calvin Burke</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/calvinjburke" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@calvinjburke</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="2 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/calvinjburke/status/1582247052175495168" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-18T05:47:48.000Z">2h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1h0z5md" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="menu" aria-label="More" class="css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1777fci r-bt1l66 r-1ny4l3l r-bztko3 r-lrvibr" data-testid="caret" role="button" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 20px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px; position: relative; user-select: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="0"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-14j79pv r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-1h0z5md r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-o7ynqc r-clp7b1 r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; justify-content: flex-start; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: color; white-space: nowrap;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1niwhzg r-sdzlij r-1p0dtai r-xoduu5 r-1d2f490 r-xf4iuw r-1ny4l3l r-u8s1d r-zchlnj r-ipm5af r-o7ynqc r-6416eg" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border-radius: 9999px; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; inset: 0px; margin: -8px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: absolute; transition-duration: 0.2s; transition-property: background-color, box-shadow; z-index: 0;"></div><svg aria-hidden="true" class="r-4qtqp9 r-yyyyoo r-1xvli5t r-dnmrzs r-bnwqim r-1plcrui r-lrvibr r-1hdv0qi" viewbox="0 0 24 24"><g><circle cx="5" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="12" cy="12" r="2"></circle><circle cx="19" cy="12" r="2"></circle></g></svg></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-4qtqp9 r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-block; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" id="id__s6bn9c92p7" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Replying to <div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></a></div> <div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/j_n_foster" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@j_n_foster</span></a></div> <span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">and</span></span> <div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</span></a></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__sfzv0tiqqms" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">I’ve never heard of these folks before, but gosh, this is so awful! How unprofessional, and frankly, dishonest!</span></div></div></div></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__n6h3fj527ns" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__n6h3fj527ns" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: normal; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-k4xj1c r-18u37iz r-1wtj0ep" style="-webkit-box-align: start; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; -webkit-box-pack: justify; align-items: start; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: space-between; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" data-testid="User-Names" id="id__kded3v51fus" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/SuperMensch" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; 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align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-decoration-line: underline; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 css-1hf3ou5 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Mensch</span></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-xoduu5 r-18u37iz r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline-flex; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;"></div></div></a></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2 r-13hce6t" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1d09ksm r-18u37iz r-1wbh5a2" style="-webkit-box-align: baseline; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: baseline; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1loqt21 r-1wbh5a2 r-dnmrzs r-1ny4l3l" href="https://twitter.com/SuperMensch" role="link" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 1; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="-1"><div class="css-901oao css-1hf3ou5 r-14j79pv r-18u37iz r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-direction: row; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; white-space: nowrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@SuperMensch</span></div></a></div><div aria-hidden="true" class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1q142lx r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-s1qlax r-qvutc0" dir="auto" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; flex-shrink: 0; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 4px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">·</span></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-18u37iz r-1q142lx" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: row; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a aria-label="9 hours ago" class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao r-14j79pv r-1loqt21 r-xoduu5 r-1q142lx r-1w6e6rj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-9aw3ui r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="auto" href="https://twitter.com/SuperMensch/status/1582145058001690624" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; cursor: pointer; display: inline-flex; flex-shrink: 0; flex-wrap: wrap; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; gap: 4px; line-height: 20px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: nowrap;"><time datetime="2022-10-17T23:02:31.000Z">9h</time></a></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1joea0r" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-1awozwy r-6koalj r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; 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z-index: 0;"><div aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="menu" aria-label="More" class="css-18t94o4 css-1dbjc4n r-1777fci r-bt1l66 r-1ny4l3l r-bztko3 r-lrvibr" data-testid="caret" role="button" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-box-pack: center; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; justify-content: center; margin: 0px; min-height: 20px; min-width: 0px; outline-style: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px; position: relative; user-select: none; z-index: 0;" tabindex="0"><div class="css-901oao r-1awozwy r-14j79pv r-6koalj r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-1h0z5md r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-o7ynqc r-clp7b1 r-3s2u2q r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: flex; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; 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z-index: 0;"><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-4qtqp9 r-zl2h9q" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-block; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-14j79pv r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="auto" id="id__q6quit6lzg" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #536471; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Replying to <div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/loydo38" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@loydo38</span></a></div> <span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">and</span></span> <div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</span></a></div></div></div><div class="css-1dbjc4n" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__vxxdi2eq688" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;">Mike Quinn coined the term "theocratic ethics" to describe unethical conduct being justified in furtherance of the (subjective) greater good. Dan Peterson was kicked out of the Maxwell Institute for this conduct, but he obviously instilled theocratic ethics at his </span><div class="css-1dbjc4n r-xoduu5" style="-webkit-box-align: stretch; -webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: vertical; align-items: stretch; border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; flex-basis: auto; flex-direction: column; flex-shrink: 0; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; min-width: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; z-index: 0;"><span class="r-18u37iz" style="-webkit-box-direction: normal; -webkit-box-orient: horizontal; flex-direction: row;"><a class="css-4rbku5 css-18t94o4 css-901oao css-16my406 r-1cvl2hr r-1loqt21 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/InterpreterFnd" role="link" style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #1d9bf0; cursor: pointer; display: inline; font: inherit; list-style: none; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; text-align: inherit; text-decoration-line: none; white-space: inherit;">@InterpreterFnd</a></span></div></div></div></div></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__n6h3fj527ns" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div></div></div></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__bakjluq1hgw" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__lvbaqbu6z2s" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div><div class="css-901oao r-18jsvk2 r-37j5jr r-a023e6 r-16dba41 r-rjixqe r-bcqeeo r-bnwqim r-qvutc0" data-testid="tweetText" dir="auto" id="id__lvbaqbu6z2s" lang="en" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: #0f1419; display: inline; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; position: relative; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span class="css-901oao css-16my406 r-poiln3 r-bcqeeo r-qvutc0" style="border: 0px solid black; box-sizing: border-box; color: inherit; display: inline; font: inherit; margin: 0px; min-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px; white-space: inherit;"><br /></span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-14881759183805235182022-09-22T08:40:00.000-07:002022-11-15T08:40:45.289-08:00Dan misleads about the witnesses<p>One type evidence of the simulation is the amount of irony in the world.</p><p>Get this: of everyone in the world, the most unlikely person to make a faithful film about the witnesses of the Nephite plates is Dan Peterson.</p><p>Yet he was the executive producer of the film <i>Witnesses!</i></p><p>Dan famously disbelieves what the witnesses said about Cumorah in New York. But that's not all he disbelieves.</p><p>Dan teaches--he insists on--the stone-in-the-hat theory (SITH), contrary to what both Joseph and Oliver expressly taught.</p><p>He even gave an interview, published in the <i>Interpreter</i>, in which he intentionally or ignorantly misstates the evidence to suit his theme.</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">It’s really important to distinguish between the three witnesses and the eight witnesses. The three witnesses definitely claim to have seen things, to have heard the voice of God, to have seen an angel, to have seen the plates and other objects. </span><span style="color: #990000;"><b>They never claimed to have touched the plates.</b></span><span style="color: #2b00fe;"> That’s an experience that’s reserved to the eight witnesses who did.</span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><a href="https://interpreterfoundation.org/witnesses-of-the-book-of-mormon-insights-episode-21-who-felt-or-saw-the-plates/" target="_blank">https://interpreterfoundation.org/witnesses-of-the-book-of-mormon-insights-episode-21-who-felt-or-saw-the-plates/</a></p></blockquote><p>Yet here's what Oliver said when he rejoined the Church.</p><p><span face=""Ensign:Serif", McKay, "McKay ldsLat", Palatino, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino-Roman, serif" style="background-color: white; color: #2b00fe; font-size: 18px;">“I wrote with my own pen the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the lips of the Prophet as he translated it by the gift and power of God by means of the Urim and Thummim, or as it is called by that book, holy interpreters. </span><span face=""Ensign:Serif", McKay, "McKay ldsLat", Palatino, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino-Roman, serif" style="background-color: white; font-size: 18px;"><span style="color: #990000;"><b>I beheld with my eyes and handled with my hands the gold plates from which it was translated</b>.</span></span><span face=""Ensign:Serif", McKay, "McKay ldsLat", Palatino, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino-Roman, serif" style="background-color: white; color: #2b00fe; font-size: 18px;"> I also beheld the Interpreters. That book is true. Sidney Rigdon did not write it. Mr. Spaulding did not write it. I wrote it myself as it fell from the lips of the Prophet.</span></p><p><a href="http://www.lettervii.com/p/oliver-returning-to-church-reuben.html" target="_blank">http://www.lettervii.com/p/oliver-returning-to-church-reuben.html</a></p><p>Naturally, we wonder why Dan would have made such a basic error when Oliver's account is so well known.</p><p>We can't read minds, but we can see that Oliver's statement once again repudiates the entire SITH narrative that Dan promotes. Oliver insists that Joseph translated the gold plates with the Urim and Thummim, which he saw.</p><p>Recall that Oliver was living in a time when SITH had been promoted for over 20 years by critics of the Church, and when the Spalding theory was widely accepted by mainstream media.</p><p>We can reasonably infer that Dan omitted Oliver's statement because he wouldn't want to bring attention to it, just as he omits Letter VII and other statements because he insists Cumorah is not in New York.</p><p>_____</p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgqblZm7uxkz0cX83dsOlHQLZftrCDDzp_uRS2jt7YT2Lbj36quAVnevGR3awK2hwF2AUt5AxFJtyIEjNyUxsjb89fJ2Dl-178AQo9sEIh0GLnmzjs1KkGzeakMoVQ_cLGPgCNlsCZekarHDW_AHxaJpF2IsUHr4h2J5CeCJ2KLjyAXNWa2CjqvkPtN/s737/JS%20seer%20stone%20JSP%20display.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="404" data-original-width="737" height="175" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgqblZm7uxkz0cX83dsOlHQLZftrCDDzp_uRS2jt7YT2Lbj36quAVnevGR3awK2hwF2AUt5AxFJtyIEjNyUxsjb89fJ2Dl-178AQo9sEIh0GLnmzjs1KkGzeakMoVQ_cLGPgCNlsCZekarHDW_AHxaJpF2IsUHr4h2J5CeCJ2KLjyAXNWa2CjqvkPtN/s320/JS%20seer%20stone%20JSP%20display.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br />Recall that when he said this, Oliver had Joseph's brown seer stone in his possession. Joseph had given it to him because he didn't need it any longer. <p></p><p>SITH sayers claim Joseph didn't need it any longer because he had finished the translation. An alternative interpretation is that Joseph didn't need it any longer because he no longer had to demonstrate the translation process without displaying the U&T or the plates.</p><p>Either way, Oliver did not display the stone to his audience. He did not explain that he and Joseph referred to the stone as the Urim and Thummim. Instead, he ignored the stone in his possession when he testified that Joseph used the Interpreters to translate the plates. </p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-62358631147304506242022-07-26T10:21:00.000-07:002022-07-26T10:21:15.740-07:00Jacinda taking cues from the Interpreter<p> <span style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 23px; white-space: pre-wrap;">New Zealand PM Jacinda Ardern: </span></p><span style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 23px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
"We will continue to be your single source of truth… Unless you hear it from us it is not the truth"</span><div><span style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 23px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><iframe allowfullscreen='allowfullscreen' webkitallowfullscreen='webkitallowfullscreen' mozallowfullscreen='mozallowfullscreen' width='320' height='266' src='https://www.blogger.com/video.g?token=AD6v5dxx2gwkFj0HNOM_5fdZP6TeovcKSbsCb5eJPH7ixsPgEnr5zgPkcLw7iuD30iotEvUXlYaw9YqSPPfGI5X-KA' class='b-hbp-video b-uploaded' frameborder='0'></iframe></div><br /><span style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 23px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-72271138929003381522022-07-19T08:00:00.054-07:002022-07-19T08:16:19.732-07:00Dan's still at it. "Tough luck." Sigh.<p>Recently I expressed some hope that Dan and the other "Interpreters" might be moving toward a different mode of apologetics that accommodates a variety of faithful Latter-day Saint interpretations. Maybe, I hoped, he would even begin to support and corroborate the teachings of the prophets instead of repudiating them.</p><p>Apparently that's not the case. Sigh.</p><p>A few days ago, Dan did a fireside at which he rehashed a bunch of his decades-old apologetics, including his M2C theory. </p><p>Dan the Interpreter spelled out his approach to these topics: <span style="color: #2b00fe;">"I used to say, 'I'm the one with the mic and you're not, so tough luck.'"</span> </p><p>He says he "used to say" this. Except he's <i>still </i>saying it. </p><p>After all, that's the message of the Interpreter Foundation: "tough luck" if you don't agree with our interpretations. And don't forget, we're taking donations, too.</p><p>Sad.</p><p>_____</p><p>In the clip below, Dan discusses M2C. It's incredible that he is still teaching people that Joseph Smith was an ignorant speculator who learned about the Book of Mormon from a popular travel book. </p><p>Watch the clip below and see for yourself. </p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/rodeGihInBA?t=2854" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/rodeGihInBA?t=2854</a></p><p>BTW, apparently it's fine to discuss Book of Mormon geography in Church buildings so long as you promote M2C.</p><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhzSHvuTSLR0rR2DImaf8tAvFTXpJ7hzvClFn_WBPDlw6fU2sUs7l5nf1IvyR77MjhqOWlRiVpZ3_hNzkQDWpDjblgwuH1d28_OvAcixE8zFXbPyefAXhv4JULb2qlrvGhZnheMvIZgSGfIKVJo1UWeMDpNUvjbcdxmYbl9N1TP4vpADP3bmijZFTqr/s375/Dan%20the%20Interpreter%20in%20Canada.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="237" data-original-width="375" height="202" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhzSHvuTSLR0rR2DImaf8tAvFTXpJ7hzvClFn_WBPDlw6fU2sUs7l5nf1IvyR77MjhqOWlRiVpZ3_hNzkQDWpDjblgwuH1d28_OvAcixE8zFXbPyefAXhv4JULb2qlrvGhZnheMvIZgSGfIKVJo1UWeMDpNUvjbcdxmYbl9N1TP4vpADP3bmijZFTqr/s320/Dan%20the%20Interpreter%20in%20Canada.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>Dan jokes that the geography isn't essential to salvation, which everyone knows. It's a typical straw-man argument. M2C is problematic not because it jeopardizes anyone's salvation, but because its premise--that Joseph and Oliver misled everyone about the Hill Cumorah--undermines the credibility and reliability of Joseph and Oliver. </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgprdqk_HWpvhHG1OnjvQ9fLCGesWY2IDfemlWKyLWTnm0C87Q1eH1gUxH3SjptgUUebgldnXTQ_TjDvDb9VACcMGrr2_F5nXoXfCU2tVPr7YdfH8sRijJnFXzm_9KWMZGb56RnRZIULriHh0ZtBzhv722pury_G4wSwd6Z7ZYjmchGFG2yXoJjswYF/s411/Dan%20the%20Interpreter%20in%20Canada-M2C.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="241" data-original-width="411" height="188" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgprdqk_HWpvhHG1OnjvQ9fLCGesWY2IDfemlWKyLWTnm0C87Q1eH1gUxH3SjptgUUebgldnXTQ_TjDvDb9VACcMGrr2_F5nXoXfCU2tVPr7YdfH8sRijJnFXzm_9KWMZGb56RnRZIULriHh0ZtBzhv722pury_G4wSwd6Z7ZYjmchGFG2yXoJjswYF/s320/Dan%20the%20Interpreter%20in%20Canada-M2C.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><p></p><p>Joseph and Oliver were the only two witnesses to the restoration of the Priesthood, the only two witnesses to the restoration of temple blessings, and the only two who were authorized to translate the plates. They were the principal witnesses of the actual translation, and they both testified repeatedly that Joseph translated the record with the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates.</p><p>When Dan and the other M2C/SITH "interpreters" teach that Joseph and Oliver were wrong about Cumorah and the translation, they cast doubt on everything Joseph and Oliver said.</p><p>Dan related his belief that <span style="color: #2b00fe;">"Joseph was delighted when he read a book called <i>incidents of travel in central america chiapas and yukatan</i> written by John Lloyd Stevens which was published about a decade after one appeared and he discovered that there were cities in central America were fortified with ditches and walls and palisades logs and houses and cities of cement this is exactly what the Book of Mormon had described and he was delighted to see it it's an area by the way where we know there was writing and that isn't true in all areas of the of the uh ancient mesoamerican or even pre-pre-columbian-american world. I won't go into that but we do know there was writing and we do know there are writing systems that use timekeeping systems one of them is really interesting."</span></p><p>Rarely do we see so much spin and misinformation packed into a single presentation.</p><p>Of course, Dan doesn't tell his audience what Joseph, Oliver, their contemporaries and successors said about the New York Cumorah because Dan advocates for M2C.</p><p>Just like Dan doesn't tell his audience what Joseph and Oliver said about the translation because he advocates for SITH.</p><p>_____</p><p>People who follow Dan and the other "Interpreters" instead of doing their own studying and thinking might believe what Dan says. But even the critics know that Dan's approach directly repudiates what Joseph and Oliver taught. </p><p>[Notice how the critic in this case goes on to point out how the Heartland approach is at least consistent with what Joseph taught. Unfortunately, he digresses into his objection about millions of people dying at Cumorah, a common misreading of the Book of Mormon that M2Cers also claim.]</p><p>_____</p><p>A far more effective apologetic approach would inform people about the scriptures, the teachings of the prophets, and the actual historical sources, and then offer multiple working hypotheses--including some that corroborate those teachings instead of repudiating them the way Dan does.</p><p><br /></p><p> </p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5334555691625052192.post-86612621686187433362022-07-08T07:00:00.000-07:002022-07-08T07:00:01.195-07:00Dan's (former?) form of apologetics<p>This is one of several posts I never published, but maybe it will be helpful for some readers to review Dan's style of apologetics in the hope that he will announce a meaningful course correction.</p><p>In other words, I hope this post is relegated to the dustbin of history because Dan renounces his past and become open to multiple faithful working hypotheses.</p><p>_____</p><p>Someone sent me Dan's scholarly comments on the Carthage movie, including this gem: <span style="color: #2b00fe;">"I'm hoping that this repulsive piece of speculative historical revisionism will soon fade into the obscurity that I believe it abundantly deserves, and I'm very reluctant to give it even the slightest degree of publicity."</span> </p><p>He's not just <i>reluctant</i>; he's <i>very </i>reluctant. </p><p>Which apparently means he has to tell all his followers about it.</p><p>But Dan's characterization looks like a Freudian slip, because it applies to the M2C and SITH theories he's been promoting for decades.</p><p>_____</p><p>Recently, a two-part podcast by RFM (a former LDS apologist turned critic, who is hoping to leave his law practice to work full time as a critical podcaster) discussed Dan's history advocating for M2C.</p><p>Below the transcript from one caller who related his experience with Dan. </p><p>Dan's defenders will object to me citing an "anti-Mormon" podcast, but the experience related by this caller is not uncommon. Active members of the Church have related similar experiences to me. They stay in the Church <i>despite </i>Dan because they reject Dan's mode of apologetics and the SITH/M2C narrative he promotes.</p><p>I'm hoping that Dan will change his mode of apologetics, but if he doesn't, I hope more Latter-day Saints recognize that Dan doesn't represent the Church.</p><p><b>I hope more Latter-day Saints reject Dan's form of apologetics instead of rejecting the Church.</b> </p><p>_____</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4tYNWFkO6o&t=5928s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4tYNWFkO6o&t=5928s</a></p><div aria-label="1 hour, 38 minutes, 42 seconds thank you so is is there nobody calling
i was hoping that dan
might ring us up i've got a couple right" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><br /></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 38 minutes, 48 seconds now so we will go to
i don't have a name but we'll go to a
caller who has a personal story about" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:38:48</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"> we'll go to a caller who has a personal story about</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 38 minutes, 55 seconds dan peterson caller you're on mormonism
live with rfm and bill reel uh what's
your experience with the taper dan and" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:38:55</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">dan peterson caller you're on mormonism live with rfm and bill reel uh what's your experience with the taper dan and</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 39 minutes, 2 seconds keep it clean okay
okay
sure sure yeah yeah and you're really
quiet if you can talk a little louder my" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:39:02</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">keep it clean okay okay sure sure yeah yeah and you're really quiet if you can talk a little louder my</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 39 minutes, 9 seconds friend
okay
can you hear me yeah i can hear you but" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:39:09</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">friend okay can you hear me yeah i can hear you but</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 39 minutes, 14 seconds barely
all right" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:39:14</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">barely all right</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 39 minutes, 20 seconds any better yeah yeah what's your
experience with dan peterson okay" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:39:20</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">any better yeah yeah what's your experience with dan peterson okay</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 39 minutes, 25 seconds um when i was
i hadn't
all the way left to church yet but" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:39:25</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">um when i was i hadn't all the way left to church yet but</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 39 minutes, 31 seconds everything was just really really
weighing heavily on me
somehow i came across uh one of dan's um" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:39:31</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">everything was just really really weighing heavily on me somehow i came across uh one of dan's um</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 39 minutes, 38 seconds blog posts you know articles or whatever
and i didn't realize that it was his
like personal blog i just started with" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:39:38</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">blog posts you know articles or whatever and i didn't realize that it was his like personal blog i just started with</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 39 minutes, 45 seconds some article that he had written that
somebody had posted somewhere and
and it just got me kind of incensed um" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:39:45</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">some article that he had written that somebody had posted somewhere and and it just got me kind of incensed um</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 39 minutes, 51 seconds and i i
wrote a comment in the comment section
well wait a second wait a second hold it
hold on" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:39:51</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">and i wrote a comment in the comment section</span> </yt-formatted-string><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="font-size: 1.2rem;"><br /></span></yt-formatted-string><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="font-size: 1.2rem;"><br /></span></yt-formatted-string><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="font-size: 1.2rem;"><br /></span></yt-formatted-string><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="font-size: 1.2rem;"><br /></span></yt-formatted-string><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><br /></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 3 seconds you incensed about dan peterson's
article
um" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:40:03</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="font-size: 19.2px;">what made </span>you incensed about dan peterson's article um</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 9 seconds i i
i this will make sense to you when i say
this but i don't remember the content of" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:40:09</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">i i i this will make sense to you when i say this but i don't remember the content of</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 14 seconds the article but it was the condescending
uh nature of
just the" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:40:14</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">the article but <span style="color: #cc0000;">it was the condescending uh nature of just the</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 21 seconds i mean he's a polemicist you know like
and
and uh
it just i realized that" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:40:21</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">i mean he's a polemicist you know like and and uh it just i realized that</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 28 seconds in the past
i would have like accepted that like oh
he's on the lord's side he's he's" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:40:28</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">in the past i would have like accepted that like oh he's on the lord's side he's he's</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 33 seconds fighting for the church and yeah there's
these nasty people out there but once
you start to like see the other side of" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:40:33</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">fighting for the church</span> and yeah there's these nasty people out there but once you start to like see the other side of</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 39 seconds the equation and you become the person
on the other side and you realize you're
not a bad person you're just following" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:40:39</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">the equation and you become the person on the other side and you realize you're not a bad person you're just following</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 45 seconds the truth right
then you become the target of that
um" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:40:45</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">the truth right then you become the target of that um</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 50 seconds that rhetoric and it's disgusting it
feels icky and i addressed some comment" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:40:50</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">that rhetoric and it's disgusting it feels icky and i addressed some comment</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 40 minutes, 55 seconds like
dan like i like
this is terrible the way that you talk
about people and" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:40:55</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">like dan like i like this is terrible the way that you talk about people and</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 1 second um like i can't take this anymore or
something like that and uh he and louis" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:41:01</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">um like i can't take this anymore or something like that and uh <span style="color: #cc0000;">he and louis</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 6 seconds midley
ganged up and they turned into this
whole thing on there
where i was going through this" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:41:06</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">midley ganged up and they turned into this whole thing on there where i was going through this</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 12 seconds experience where i had commented
because i was hurting right
and and i get it like" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:41:12</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">experience where i had commented because i was hurting right and and i get it like</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 19 seconds you know but still
uh the feeling of these people who are
defending the church being so nasty and" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:41:19</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">you know but still uh the feeling of these people who are defending the church being so nasty and</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 26 seconds vile and condescending like i'm the
idiot here i'm the i'm the dummy you
know and" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:41:26</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">vile and condescending like i'm the idiot here i'm the i'm the dummy you know and</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 32 seconds i used to look up to him and think oh
well at least we have somebody who's
really smart on our side" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:41:32</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">i used to look up to him and think oh well at least we have somebody who's really smart on our side</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 39 seconds and he uses big words
and he seems very intelligent and
everything but when you actually look at" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:41:39</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">and he uses big words and he seems very intelligent and everything but when you actually look at</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 45 seconds like the
the arguments that are made and the
defenses that are given it's just
nonsense it's utter nonsense and i feel" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:41:45</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">like the the arguments that are made and the defenses that are given it's just nonsense it's utter nonsense</span> and i feel</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 51 seconds like my my
my son's like 13 years old could poke
through half of this stuff just on" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:41:51</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">like my my my son's like 13 years old could poke through half of this stuff just on</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 41 minutes, 57 seconds reading and saying well that's not a
good way to argue a point or you know
what i mean like
and that feeling" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:41:57</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">reading and saying well that's not a good way to argue a point or you know what i mean like and <span style="color: #cc0000;">that feeling</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 4 seconds of being um excoriated by these guys and
having my orthodoxy called into question
and all of a sudden lou midgley gets on" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:42:04</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">of being um excoriated by these guys and having my orthodoxy called into question and all of a sudden lou midgley gets on</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 11 seconds and says oh i'll just look this guy up
and he's not legitimate he's not really
a member of the church and it was so" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-badge-chip-background); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:42:11</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); font-weight: 500; margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">and says oh i'll just look this guy up and he's not legitimate he's not really a member of the church and it was so</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 17 seconds icky that that was like it for me like
there's just no no way no i can't be" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:42:17</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">icky that that was like it for me like there's just no no way no i can't be</span></yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 22 seconds part of this anymore and i was
like it gave me that push that i needed
you know because you're you're worried" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">1:42:22</span></div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1"><span style="color: #cc0000;">part of this anymore</span> and i was like it gave me that push that i needed you know because you're you're worried</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 28 seconds about well i don't want to hurt people's
feelings what about my family and what
about all this and that incident right" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:42:28</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">about well i don't want to hurt people's feelings what about my family and what about all this and that incident right</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 33 seconds there was like definitely gave me the
push that i needed like you know what
screw you do yeah because i was already" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:42:33</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">there was like definitely gave me the push that i needed like you know what screw you do yeah because i was already</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 39 seconds there
but like you know
that was it for me and i hear what
you're saying" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:42:39</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">there but like you know that was it for me and i hear what you're saying</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 47 seconds i've had the same experience and trodden
the same path it wasn't the reason i
exited or anything but definitely uh" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:42:47</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">i've had the same experience and trodden the same path it wasn't the reason i exited or anything but definitely uh</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 54 seconds viewing daniel peterson uh in one way
before seeing him" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:42:54</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">viewing daniel peterson uh in one way before seeing him</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 42 minutes, 59 seconds uh react to me personally like he did
the critics of the church when i'm just
trying to ask a question and get some" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:42:59</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">uh react to me personally like he did the critics of the church when i'm just trying to ask a question and get some</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 5 seconds information or clarification
and absolutely louis midgley you got
attacked by the midge daniel c" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:05</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">information or clarification and absolutely louis midgley you got attacked by the midge daniel c</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 11 seconds peterson's crummy little toady
yeah by the way you now know" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:11</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">peterson's crummy little toady yeah by the way you now know</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 16 seconds what the city in daniel said in the
christmas card boom chakalaka he got it
did you get that one bill this is the" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:16</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">what the city in daniel said in the christmas card boom chakalaka he got it did you get that one bill this is the</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 22 seconds second time i've used it i can barely
hear him okay but okay so anyway it was" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:22</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">second time i've used it i can barely hear him okay but okay so anyway it was</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 27 seconds actually me so the deal is this
you found out what the c and daniel c
peterson stands for which is" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:27</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">actually me so the deal is this you found out what the c and daniel c peterson stands for which is</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 34 seconds condescending
yeah daniel condescending peterson i've" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:34</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">condescending yeah daniel condescending peterson i've</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 39 seconds had the same experience with him and
midgley both
um just any time and myself or other" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:39</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">had the same experience with him and midgley both um just any time and myself or other</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 47 seconds people pushing back at the
uh what i thought was demonstrably" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:47</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">people pushing back at the uh what i thought was demonstrably</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 53 seconds absurd narratives that some of the
apologists would give on these issues
and any time they got resistance they" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:53</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">absurd narratives that some of the apologists would give on these issues and any time they got resistance they</yt-formatted-string></div><div aria-label="1 hour, 43 minutes, 58 seconds really resorted to mean-spiritedness
and personal attacks and ad hominem" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background: transparent; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:43:58</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">really resorted to mean-spiritedness and personal attacks and ad hominem</yt-formatted-string></div><p><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer active" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer><ytd-transcript-segment-renderer class="style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-list-renderer" style="background-color: white; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"></ytd-transcript-segment-renderer></p><div aria-label="1 hour, 44 minutes, 5 seconds yeah thank you so much for the call yep
so our next caller is trevor trevor you" class="segment style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" role="button" style="align-items: baseline; background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-badge-chip-background); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; cursor: pointer; display: flex; flex-direction: row; font-family: Roboto, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; outline: none; padding: 12px 16px 8px 8px; position: relative;" tabindex="0"><div aria-hidden="true" class="segment-start-offset style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background: transparent; border: 0px; display: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-time-display); margin: 0px 16px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="segment-timestamp style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: var(--yt-spec-suggested-action); background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 0px; color: var(--yt-spec-call-to-action); font-size: 1.3rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.8rem; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 4px;">1:44:05</div></div><yt-formatted-string aria-hidden="true" class="segment-text style-scope ytd-transcript-segment-renderer" style="color: var(--yt-spec-text-primary); font-weight: 500; margin-left: var(--ytd-transcript-segment-text-margin-left); overflow-wrap: break-word; width: 280.417px;" tabindex="-1">yeah thank you so much for the call<span> </span></yt-formatted-string></div><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoTsWIbTy2M&t=4451s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoTsWIbTy2M&t=4451s</a></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0